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Teaching chest vault for frisbee

Running, catching, leaping; this is the forum to discuss dog sports and agility training with other active pups!

  
Sun

1258882
 
 
Barked: Thu Sep 19, '13 5:30pm PST 
My dog just doesn't get it. shrug

I first started by getting on one knee and asking him to vault off my leg but he just jumped over. And over, and over. So I stood up and leaned back, holding the frisbee out so he could use use my body to grab it. But he just jumps REALLY high and avoids using my body as leverage. When I encourage him to jump on me, he will only put his front paws up.

What should I try?

(He does the same thing when I attempt a back stall. He will jump over, instead of on. *sigh*)

Edited by author Thu Sep 19, '13 5:52pm PST

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Cohen CD RE- ADC SGDC- FDCh CGN

The Monster
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 20, '13 4:22am PST 
I'm just starting in disc myself. I have a back stall but our vault is still a work in progress. Here's just some thoughts on both off the top of my head.

- With all the agility work as well as the tricks I'd taught Cohen that involved jumping over my arms/legs, I found it hard to get her to understand the concept of a leg vault. I found she was better going from my right to my left (which meant holding/tossing the disc with my left hand) than my left to my right.

- I think a lot of it is placement of the dog and the disc. Here's a video that breaks it down a bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Jnsp3dzEA. Note that he's just having the dog do takes of the frisbee and he's not tossing it at all. Also note that he's working close by the dog to start.

- Back stalls are tough to train if you don't have anyone helping you. Consider grabbing a training partner. I trained it solo. Try using a bathmat as a placement indicator. Get the dog used to jumping up onto objects marked with the bath mat. Then move the mat to your back and give that a go. I find that it helps if I have another prop to pattern the dog on a few times (like maybe the mat placed on top of a bar stool) then try on my back a few times, then move back to the stool, then my back, all within the same training session.

- Keep training sessions SHORT. I have a tendency to overtrain, but I find that with disc, less is almost always more.

- Before teaching a back stall we had a jump into my arms behaviour, and before a vault I already had a rebound behaviour. I think these helped teach Cohen to a) trust me and b) feel comfortable using my body as a jungle gym when requested. It doesn't come naturally to all dogs.

- My major issue with the vaults these days is disc placement. I'm still learning through trial and error where the disc needs to be, and I have a hard time getting it there with any regularity. Thank goodness Cohen is a patient training partner since so much of success in disc relies on the handler.
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Cohen CD RE- ADC SGDC- FDCh CGN

The Monster
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 20, '13 5:18am PST 
One last thought:

I've recently found that Cohen's vault from behind me over my right shoulder is quite strong. I think I can place the disc better for her, and the signals I'm giving her seem more clear. Maybe try to experiment with different types of vaults and see if any come more naturally.
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Sun

1258882
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 20, '13 4:07pm PST 
Tried it all...
I thought the bath mat idea was sure to work, because Sun knows "place" but it didn't do anything for him. He gets extremely frustrated with the back stall because he doesn't get any reward (since he never does the behavior right) and even though I encourage him he gives up after a few times and goes under a chair. frown

As for the others.. I watched the video but the things the dog is doing right away are what Sun doesn't understand (vaulting instead of just jumping right over my leg) and it doesn't matter if I am kneeling, standing slightly so my leg is higher, standing and just leaning back, OR holding the disc low or high. His reaction is the same every time - try his hardest to get disc without touching me.

And I saw some comments from people with dogs doing the same thing. He says to not let the dog grab the disc until the dog does it correctly, but that is so frustrating for Sun.
He is the type of dog that normally learns something new in minutes, but if it takes a long time he quits and decides it's not a good thing, and then remembers that the next time we try. SO I've been letting him get the disc even though he only springs into the air.

I'm thinking I should give up on this sport/trick.. It doesn't seem to be in his future.
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Sun

1258882
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 20, '13 4:14pm PST 
Oh, I tried calling him from behind too.. And after two or three times knew that one wasn't going to work. I taught Sun to stand between my legs on command and that has become one of his favorite things. He will do it to other people even, and give them a surprise!
So all he did was run between my legs, lol..
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Cohen CD RE- ADC SGDC- FDCh CGN

The Monster
 
 
Barked: Sat Sep 21, '13 5:42am PST 
He gets extremely frustrated with the back stall because he doesn't get any reward (since he never does the behavior right) and even though I encourage him he gives up after a few times and goes under a chair. frown

This sounds like you're lumping. You should be able to break down the behaviour enough so that he gets a reward for successive approximations of your goal.

I'd be curious to see a video of your work. Maybe it'll help troubleshoot it a bit better.

It also sounds like he has some issues with dealing with frustration (which is totally understandable). It might be in your best interest to start looking into exercises to stretch his willingness and ability to cope with his frustration during training sessions.

I'd be happy to trade some videos back and forth (via email, maybe FB) to try and improve disc work.
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Charlie- Chaplin

A day without- laughter is a- day wasted
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 13, '13 1:27pm PST 
Too A. D. D. to read full posts right now, but have you seen this fellow dogster's back stall video? It worked for Chaplin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQCsZvh5UR8
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Charlie- Chaplin

A day without- laughter is a- day wasted
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 13, '13 1:32pm PST 
And can you make the chest vault into a chain? Can you teach him to target your legs or chest or wherever with his paws and work up from there? Chaplin does paw targets on pieces of paper so I can fade it out easier (just my personal preference). I think paw targets with paper are a dogsend, but who am I to say so?
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Murphy's Law Enforcement

ResQd!
 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 7, '14 7:22pm PST 
I taught another dog to vault off my leg by teaching him first to just put his front paws on my leg as I was kneeling with one knee out. Once he learned this without the disc I then introduced the disc back in and tossed it straight up so he had to go up for it. He had a lot more courage once I reinforced that he was allowed to put his front paws on my knee like that. The first time I brought the disc back out he put those paws up on my knee and leapt straight up for that thing!
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Flicka ~ CGC

NO-ONE is going- to sneak up on- my Mummy
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 8, '14 2:43pm PST 
bump
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