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Confused about Some APDT Rally Rules

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Rolo

1236640
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 12:54pm PST 
I was reading the rules for CyberRally, and I am confused by something:
"Food Rewards: Handlers may have food rewards (no toys) in their pockets. No bait bags are to be worn and food is not to be carried in the handlers’ hands. Handlers may reward their teammates with food after completion of any station but only while the team is stationary. No rewards are to be given while the team is in motion. It is permissible to stop between stations to deliver a food reward.
5. Petting/Praising: Handlers may pet and praise their dogs after completion of any station. Petting is to be done while the team is stationary. It is permissible to stop between stations to pet the dog. Praising is encouraged throughout the course, whether the team is stationary or moving.

Now food is a primary reinforcer, and toys are a secondary or conditioned reinforcer, so is this the difference in why they are allowed? It's confusing to me because some dogs work better for toys. Are toys allowed after the course is finished?

Another confusing thing is that petting and praising are allowed, and I believe these are also secondary or conditioned reinforcers.

So why these differences?

Edited for clarification

Edited by author Wed Jan 23, '13 3:16pm PST

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Rolo

1236640
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 2:02pm PST 
Sorry, I need to clarify that I was talking about CyberRally not Rally!

Edited by author Tue Jan 22, '13 4:48pm PST

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Cohen CD RE- ADC SGDC- FDCh CGN

The Monster
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 2:45pm PST 
I imagine the intent is to reward the dog while it's under control and in proper position. There aren't too many ways to deliver a toy reward while both you and the dog are stationary and the dog is in proper heel position.

I imagine a toy can be used once you exit the ring, but not while you're in it.

I don't compete in it though, so I'm only guessing.
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Risa- W-FDM/MF RE- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 4:57pm PST 
APDT (now USDAA) rally has similar rules. Food can be given only after stationary exercises. In APDT, I know it's to keep the flow of the course. You lose points if food-delivery interferes with your movement as a team. Rewarding with toys is typically very energetic and will push your dog out of position (and position is key in rally). I don't know too many dogs who you can just hand a toy as a reward; they want to play with it! Games of tug, fetch, etc. would really break up a rally course and you might even knock over a sign or two. wink Food is easy to use, quick to deliver, and keeps your dog in position and ready for the next sign.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 5:11pm PST 
I agree with Cohen. I know when I was on the rules and regs committee for APDT Rally we had a big discussion as to the use of toys as a reward and ultimately decided it was not feasible to deliver a toy reward without interrupting the flow of the course. It had nothing to do with primary vs secondary or conditioned, but with the flow of the course.

I know that you yourself have acknowledged that "I guess it's hard for me to wrap my head around Rally, as I'm more used to a dog that performs a modified predatory action pattern -- the retrieve -- as the ultimate payoff. No luring, baiting, or treating needed.

As far as rewarding activities for a dog, I'm sure some people like to practice Rally and OB routines, but these are owner-driven activities, as is hunting. Most dogs I know, given their druthers, would rather go explore, sniff and roll in stinky stuff.
" (http://www.dogster.com/forums/Sports_and_Agility/thread/719464/4)

It should be pretty self explanatory that modified play actions/exploring/sniffing/rolling in stinky stuff used as a reward would NOT make the run smooth and, if used as a reward after even a fraction of the stationary exercises, would probably cause you to NQ for time. And if we whip out a toy on the course, is the dog rewarded simply by the sight of the toy? Or would some engagement be expected?

If you are actually interested in knowing the answer, you could join the yahoo group and ask for their line of thought or email the founders of the venue and ask them directly. I am sure they could give you a more satisfactory answer as I don't know of too many Dogsters who exhibit in Cyber Rally (and I do not do so myself).
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 7:49pm PST 
I was just looking this over today. As I understand from the site you can get titled this way? Is it the same title you'd get at a venue or do you become cyber-ARCHX IN the end?

The whole thing about the food and praise but no toys confused me too.

The cost has put me off a bit as I'm basically paying to play a game in my lounge room. laugh out loud I guess your paying for titles, but the playing field is so, so different, it almost feels like a cheat. Any dog can give a killer performance at home, with no distractions.

Weird thing. thinking
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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 8:15pm PST 
I think the Cyber Rally is good for people who can't get to venues or have seriously reactive dogs. Then there are those crazy people who just like to get as many titles as they can. I overheard one person talking about how her goal was to get every letter of the alphabet after her dog's name! haha! Cyber Rally's not for me, though. I enjoy the social aspect of trials smile.

And Guest, why the snotty comment about Rally being a "sorta sport"??
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Risa- W-FDM/MF RE- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 8:16pm PST 
Maybe it's because I participate in other venues, but I see value in video competitions. They're relatively commonplace in freestyle (2 of the 3 main organizations offer video competition) and the new sport, Rally FrEe, also offers video competitions. It's a way for people to participate in a sport when there are no events close to them. Especially with the less-popular sports (I swear there are agility trials every weekend) or fledgling sports that don't have as much interest yet. APDT is a smaller venue and less widespread in comparison to AKC rally. Not everyone is close enough to compete in a live event.

On top of that, there are some dogs who cannot handle a trial environment. Video competitions are a way for those dogs and their handlers to still train and trial together without the craziness of a trial.

Is it the same? No. Risa's beginner freestyle title was earned through video competitions. The rest of her titles have been earned live. For me, there is no comparison. Yes, trialing live is harder because there is less control over the venue. And there are far more distractions. I still prefer to trial live. At least in freestyle, there is a lot you miss watching it on video. It's just not the same.

However, if video is the only way you can compete with your dog, I'm all for it. smile

Edited by author Fri Jan 18, '13 8:17pm PST

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Titus

Cave canis- vigilo omnis
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 8:42pm PST 
How do you keep it honest, though? I mean, I assume multiple tries aren't allowed in the ring; how does one know how many takes there were in a video run though? Or did I miss something?

Edited by author Tue Jan 22, '13 4:42pm PST

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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 18, '13 8:50pm PST 
shrug I've put a lot of time and money into training for Rally with Sarah. We both enjoy it. I think it's rude to call Rally a "sorta sport", like calling a Chihuahua a "sorta dog"...
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