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Is this a balanced diet?

This is the place to share your best homemade dog food and treat recipes with each other! Remember to use caution if your pet has allergies and to make any diet changes gradually so that your dog's stomach can adjust to the new foods you are introducing.

  
Dexter

1249805
 
 
Barked: Fri May 18, '12 9:15pm PST 
I'm so glad that I found an active home prepared food forum happy dance .

To make a very long story short my puppy (now 8 months old) started off on raw but after encountering multiple challenges I switched to a mix of orijen regional red, grassland acana, and precise lamb.

I am super type A, prone to over-planning, and I worry almost non-stop about my animals. My guy is also crazy active, hard to keep weight on, and just starting his conformation career.

After all of the recalls I am looking into home cooking as a raw compromise.

I've been reading like crazy and if I home cooked I think I would go with a 70-10-10-5-5 (meat, bone, organ, fruits/veggies, grain).

Like RAW, I know a lot of people balance home cooked over a period of time but I would strongly prefer to feed a balanced meal on a daily basis. Dexter is super picky and does much better if he gets the same thing every day. For him, variety is not the spice of life.

What is missing from making this a balanced meal?

15 lb dog on a 3% diet. 50 oz (3.13 lbs) per week

Week's worth of food:

70% (meat): Beef heart (organic grass-fed), Beef tongue (organic grass-fed), ground Rabbit, Green Tripe, ground Venison, Pork trimmings (organic grass-fed), canned Clams [35 oz. 5 oz of each type]
10% (bone): bone meal
5% (liver): beef liver (organic grass-fed) [2.5 oz]
5% (kidney): beef kidney (organic) [2.5 oz]
5% (fruits and veggies): Honest Kitchen Preference [2.5 oz]
5% (grain): Quinoa or Brown Rice [2.5 oz]

Supplements: fish oil, vitamin E, cosequin, probiotic, scrambled free-range egg (3-4 days a week)

Am I missing out on some key nutrients? Home cooking is really neat but like raw it definitely needs to be carefully balanced.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Fri May 18, '12 10:43pm PST 
Hi there, good job on the recipe. Cooked or raw brown rice, quinoa and THK? Makes a huge difference!

Bone meal is fine but not at 10% by weight or volume or any other measure! You need to figure out the general weight of the food and add in about 900 mg of calcium per pound of food. The bottle of bone meal should say what measure is 900 mg of calcium. NOW is 1 teaspoon for 900 mg for instance and about 3 tsp is needed. Since this diet is very high in meat content it seems to be better balanced when I added an additional 1/2 tsp of powdered egg shell. I am not taking THK into account however, it is a balanced food. Calcium:phosphorus has a wide range but about 1.0-1.5:1 is usually seen.

Looks pretty nice especially in vitamin content. Mineral balance can use a little tweaking though. Zinc is at about 50% of Max's requirement and copper and iron are at about 200% of Max's requirement. The NRC requirements are for zinc:iron:copper to be 10hi5:1, AAFCO has much looser numbers. Perhaps use half copper rich beef liver and half pork or chicken liver. Perhaps use zinc and iron balanced ground beef instead of iron rich beef heart. Perhaps use a very small amount of zinc rich oysters instead of iron rich clams. This doesn't have the optimal amount of magnesium for Max but it is completely adequate. I don't have the analysis of THK, perhaps it helps with magnesium and manganese. Perhaps you are using more quinoa than I put in, it is rich in manganese and magnesium. I didn't put in the tripe, it shouldn't be mixed with cooked food as it smells like poop but it is not a good source of magnesium, zinc or copper shouldn't shouldn't change things up too much. That is a lot of egg, perhaps work up to that amount. There is enough omega 3 in the diet for Max but the ratio is about 8:1 omega 6:3 and you may prefer to feed a lower ratio.

Here is the original minus the tripe and THK.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/recipe/2556682/2
Here it is with my modifications.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/recipe/2556689/2

If you are interested in getting everything precisely at requirement then do the work in Sedona's thread on balancing a home cooked diet but as is your dog will be fine on this diet.

There probably isn't any need to include all those proteins in the diet. You might want to reserve a couple of easily obtained proteins in case some sort of problem develops later on. I would probably just feed ground or stew beef, pork and oysters now and save rabbit and venison just in case. Unless tongue is a good deal for you it has about the same nutritional profile as other beef muscle meat.

Since I don't have THK in ND and it is meant to balance a diet with added meat I suspect calcium, iron would be too high but can hope that it helps with the low manganese and magnesium.
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Dexter

1249805
 
 
Barked: Sat May 19, '12 10:13am PST 
Thanks for the detailed response

1. By raw do you mean unprocessed rice/quinoa or raw is in uncooked? I wasn't aware that anyone ever fed uncooked grains. Is there a benefit? I was planning on cooking the grains and rehydrating the honest kitchen before feeding.

2. Lol I totally should have clarified the 10% bone. I was mentally doing things on a RAW/BARF foundation so I left the blank for bone but 10% of bone meal would be a disaster!

3. Since I have access to free range eggs I think I might go the ground eggshell route to eliminate any possibility of heavy metal contamination.

4. Swapping half the liver out for chicken liver would be a simple change for me since my local grocery store carries chicken liver year round.

5. Thanks for the heads up about the oysters. I will look around and see if I can find a good source near by.

6. I get tongue and heart for free which is why I included them. I despise feeding green tripe but I feel like the raw crowd is constantly raving about how it is critically important. I've also read countless times that it is imperative to rotate and include a bunch of different proteins to ensure that the diet is balanced. Why is this not the case with cooked? If anything doesn't cooking kill some of the nutrients which could be balanced by using multiple meat sources?

7. I don't know if this helps at all but this is the ingredient list for THK preference:

Alfalfa, sweet potatoes, cabbage, celery, apples, spinach, organic kelp, coconut, bananas, zucchini, honey, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate.

Thanks again for looking at my recipe. If I go the home cooked route I really want to do what's best for him and most balanced.
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Dexter

1249805
 
 
Barked: Sat May 19, '12 1:34pm PST 
Thanks for the detailed response

1. By raw do you mean unprocessed rice/quinoa or raw is in uncooked? I wasn't aware that anyone ever fed uncooked grains. Is there a benefit? I was planning on cooking the grains and rehydrating the honest kitchen before feeding.

2. Lol I totally should have clarified the 10% bone. I was mentally doing things on a RAW/BARF foundation so I left the blank for bone but 10% of bone meal would be a disaster!

3. Since I have access to free range eggs I think I might go the ground eggshell route to eliminate any possibility of heavy metal contamination.

4. Swapping half the liver out for chicken liver would be a simple change for me since my local grocery store carries chicken liver year round.

5. Thanks for the heads up about the oysters. I will look around and see if I can find a good source near by.

6. I get tongue and heart for free which is why I included them. I despise feeding green tripe but I feel like the raw crowd is constantly raving about how it is critically important. I've also read countless times that it is imperative to rotate and include a bunch of different proteins to ensure that the diet is balanced. Why is this not the case with cooked? If anything doesn't cooking kill some of the nutrients which could be balanced by using multiple meat sources?

7. I don't know if this helps at all but this is the ingredient list for THK preference:

Alfalfa, sweet potatoes, cabbage, celery, apples, spinach, organic kelp, coconut, bananas, zucchini, honey, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate.

Thanks again for looking at my recipe. If I go the home cooked route I really want to do what's best for him and most balanced.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Sat May 19, '12 2:38pm PST 
If you weigh out the rice and THK dry then you are feeding a whole lot more of them than if they are cooked, that is all. If I happened to cook Sassy's food with raw chicken and rice it looked like mostly meat before it was cooked and mostly rice after it was cooked!

THK is super high in iron as AAFCO numbers which commercial foods use to balance the diet are very old ones. With high iron content THK, heart and clams the diet is not balanced and cannot be balanced to more up to date NRC numbers.

I figured out THK and added it but even leaving out the heart puts iron at more than twice Max's requirement. Putting the heart back in, not a good idea unless you feed chicken or fish that is low in iron instead of venison. I don't know what happens when zinc is lower in the diet than iron though. I know excess zinc binds iron so iron looks low but not the other way around!
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/recipe/2557019/2

Bon e meal and egg shell are completely different supplements. Bone meal has a lot of phosphorus in it which is an essential nutrient. Egg shell has very little phosphorus in it and a diet with just the egg shell will be deficient in phosphorus. But, not in this case at least for the amount Max would be eating of it. Go for it, use 1 measuring teaspoon of powdered egg shell along with the THK and no bone meal and you are fine.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/recipe/2557072/2
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Dexter

1249805
 
 
Barked: Sun May 20, '12 4:46pm PST 
Maxwell your knowledge about nutrition blows my mind.

I am definitely okay with keeping it simple and only doing 1-3 meats if it really provides a balanced diet. After reading RAW threads for so long it blows my mind that adding THK and some grains can make a single protein type balanced.

Perhaps a better question would be, if I start with the base of THK, cooked quinoa, and organ meat, what muscle meat should I add to make this balanced?
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Dexter

1249805
 
 
Barked: Fri May 25, '12 2:54pm PST 
bump?
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Sat May 26, '12 9:20pm PST 
Sorry about that. Fried brain here for some reason.

I modified the recipe to what works. If you want to use THK then you don't need hardly any organ at all as THK is rich in minerals and over rich in iron but needs a lot more zinc as I wrote previously. It is meant to use with plain muscle meat so you are doing a lot more work than THK meant.

Half ground chicken, 1/4 rabbit and 1/4 pork with a very limited amount of kidney and liver works. Should be the same link as before but here it is again. Note all the items with .0001 as the amounts. I do that to save the place instead of having to add them back in if I decide to play with the amounts more later.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/recipe/2556691/2

Sinc e I am being lazy and just modifying recipes instead of copying them to a new recipe you need to save them yourself or you will be majorly confused when you go back to make up a new batch of food! I can and do change recipes I make up.
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