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Homemade version of Hills Prescription k/d for kidney/heart failure?

This is the place to share your best homemade dog food and treat recipes with each other! Remember to use caution if your pet has allergies and to make any diet changes gradually so that your dog's stomach can adjust to the new foods you are introducing.

  


Member Since
04/06/2012		 
 
Barked: Fri Apr 6, '12 4:53am PST 
Hey guys good evening, glad to be a new member. Basically, to keep things simple, my dog had first been diagnosed with failing kidneys about 4 days ago, however after having some x-rays and ultrasound, it's now not only her kidneys but her heart is failing, it's enlarged, and this is probably what caused the kidneys to go.
We were recommended to try the k/d canned food, and while I do usually have problems with commercially produced dog foods, this one actually looks to have great ingredients.

The problem is I am very into organic/humanely sourced meat and dairy, and so I want to cook this home-made myself. I emailed Hills to see if they could help me out with how many cups of this, how many tablespoons of that, for example, yet they claimed they couldn't help me because that would be giving away their "formula" . . Yep, that is what the world has come to. Caring more about a business and worrying someone will use your ingredients and actually heal a dog; I of course told them there is no way I could copy their formula that would be illegal and I would be sued however I don't think they will help me..

I know this is very do-able because the ingredients are basically water, egg whites, cornstarch, pork liver, chicken fat, sucrose (i assume this is sugar, no?), flaxseed, dried whey, chicken liver flavor, and then the synthetic vitamins and minerals, with an interesting ingredient added in as well, "caramel color", which I would want to abstain from using in my home-made version.

I guess I am so so frustrated because this is something I can literally cook up in my kitchen while staying true to my beliefs which would mean using humanely raised pork liver, chicken fat, egg whites, and whey and using non-gmo and organic cornstarch, yet I don't know HOW MUCH OF EACH TO USE IN RELATION TO OTHER, so I can't go thru with this because I don't want to make my dog worse by giving her too much of this or too little of that..

I was hoping someone here could help me with a home-made version of this while not leaving out any of these ingredients or substituting for something else, except the caramel color which I do not need and the chicken liver flavor which I guess I can make myself using humanely sourced chicken livers (which I can research myself how to make, the flavor that is) . .

Is there someway in heaven someone can help me out here? My dog and I would literally appreciate it like nothing else, it would mean so so so much to us! I don't know what else to say, this is so so important to me . . I know it's possible.

Please let me know if you can help, this is something that would mean the world to me . . Ok have a nice day, thank you smile Here is the ingredient list to get a feel for how to re-create this in a home-made version :



Water, Egg White, Corn Starch, Pork Liver, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, and citric acid), Sucrose, Flaxseed, Dried Whey, Chicken Liver Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Sulfate, Caramel Color, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Potassium Chloride, Magnesium Oxide, Iodized Salt, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Zinc Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Beta-Carotene, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

Thank you again Happy Easter smile
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Chopper

999262		 
 
Barked: Fri Apr 6, '12 6:59am PST 
Is the kidney diet low protein? I ask that because my kidney cat was put on hill's for kidney problems and did horribly, then I switched him to Orijen/raw which is very high protein/fat and he has been doing much better.

I'd say the ingredients aren't great.. no muscle meat at all. Don't like seeing the starches, either. I'd have a look online for good, homecooked recipes, or even go raw.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!		 
 
Barked: Fri Apr 6, '12 8:21am PST 
You could use Sedona's thread on this forum on how to balance a home made diet in 21 steps yourself using those ingredients and the nutrient analysis for the food.

It is mostly egg white for protein and corn starch for calories. The liver is for flavor and most of the rest is vitamins and minerals required to bring the food to something that can support the body. I would add some sort of animal fat for calories as well, that stuff is virtually fat free, adding to gut tolerance. I saved beef and lamb fat scraps and added a couple grams a day to Sassy's food.

You could use these recipes that Dr. Strombeck has graciously posted on the net from his book on home cooked food.
http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/diet_and_chronic_renal_ disease.html#dog

You could join K9KidneyDiet, a yahoo group. There are generic diets in the groups's files and loads of information on how to best feed dogs with kidney and even heart issues.

Do read Mary Straus's information on kidney disease. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html

I found that Sassy did far better on a higher protein diet than low. She was weak until I increased the protein in the diet to about 28% but keeping the phosphorus down to 11mg per pound of dog, the lowest amount suggested. Egg white, stewed chicken with the broth removed and a special low phosphorus rice, glutinous rice, were the key ingredients. I could flavor the food with beef liver for important minerals and did use small amounts of pork, lamb, beef, potato, pumpkin, banana, oyster and fish to vary the diet.

Corn starch is lower in phosphorus than the glutinous rice but Sassy loved rice and I didn't care to feed her something that would be like a pudding daily.

Lots of liver isn't a good idea as it is very high in vitamin A which isn't good for ailing kidneys so use only a little liver and some other meat if needed to bring the phosphorus up. Sassy got about 1/2 ounce a day for a 44 pound dog.

Cooking for her was very rewarding. The other key part of her care was subcutaneous fluids. She never was a good water drinker and couldn't take in enough orally as she aged. I was amazed at how good she felt a couple hours after a treatment. Dehydration is a subtle and deadly enemy! Please use subQ if the vet suggests it, it will be a bit of a tightrope considering the two issues your dog is dealing with though.
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Member Since
04/06/2012		 
 
Barked: Fri Apr 6, '12 5:16pm PST 
hey thank you you guys, awesome to see responses already smile

chopper: well even the issue of protein is confusing. when we first found out, the research i did DID say low protein was recommended, but then I saw research saying they had gone back on what they said, that low protein could actually be the opposite. i, personally, have really strong beliefs about food both for myself and for my dog, so much dogs diet isn't really changing too much. i always believe in high quality meats, organ meats for dogs of course, dairy and dairy fat, veggies, of course some grains, i believe feeding my dogs what's leftover from my own dishes is beneficial.

you know what we love orijen too! we love the regional red. my plan is to actually mix it up. some nights do the home-cooked. however whenever i feed orijen i HAVE to mix in some other carbs because my whole belief is that orijen is unbalanced with so much protein. if i fed Beautiful orijen i would also cook up some whole corn for example, or some other nutrient-rich carb to go along with it! i too don' think it's good to reduce the protein, however i don't too much like what is in orijen is good either. i think you need a balance between meat, fat, and carbs!

i actually think ingredients are pretty good. i mean the pork liver alone is awesome! the chicken fat great. non-gmo cornstarch would come from corn. i would probably just use whole kernel corn unless the reasoning for the starch is because of the phosphorus content, like i said still researching myself.
i do not believe in raw at all, for myself or for my dog. my dog is not a wolf and i actually believe cooking is what's best for our bodies. it allows us to break down foods we otherwise couldn't get nutrients from, and let's us absorb the maximum amount of nutrients from foods.

maxwell: thank you so so so much i will check it out! i did in fact read mary straus's information, in fact i am following her kidney diet right now, until i receive my pork liver and such in the mail and know how to balance this diet correctly!
what caught my attention is when you said "broth removed" .. i actually cook Beautiful's rice in a mixture of pork and beef stock. I feel stocks are great for dogs and myself in included. is this not good for them? please direct me to some research if you please..

yes we are doing the subcutaneous fluids as well. the thing i am confused about is she has been recommended to take 2 medications, enalapril and furosemide, (might be spelled wrong) one helps release fluid from the heart and one is a diuretic.. however i am very very scared to start these as the doctor blatantly said they can actually contribute to kidney failure, but it's like a lesser of two evils thing because supposedly if she doesn't go on the medication her heart will fail.. i don't know, i just can't believe that yet that she HAS to go on them to save her heart. i really want to believe that her diet will heal her and i guess i am so confused right now as to what to do! we go back in 2 weeks to start draining fluids from her thru ultrasound, and i don't know what to do with this medication problem.

i know it can be good for the heart and i HAVE read people doing great on the enalapril/furosemide combo, but i just can't have her kidney doing worse! my plan is to wait a few days, do some intensive research, and go from there.

thank you guys so much i will await more replies to help with my recipe and then i will check out those links you sent me to just do it myself! wish me luck guys love you all smile
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!		 
 
Barked: Fri Apr 6, '12 6:50pm PST 
Boiled chicken is a low phosphorus meat because the phosphorus goes into the broth! Broth is nutritious, a cup is about equivalent to an ounce of meat protein wise and it would have more B vitamins and potassium in particular but I was looking at getting protein in with less phosphorus and found B vitamins and potassium elsewhere. A cup of home prepared chicken stock has about 6 grams of protein and 64 mg of phosphorus while an ounce of stewed chicken meat has 7.6 grams of protein and 42 mg of phosphorus. Since you aren't trying to squeeze protein grams use your broths.

Do not use lots of pork liver. Just 1/2 an ounce of liver would give Sassy something like 6x her vitamin A requirement, kidney dogs have trouble clearing the stuff so you don't want to feed any more than required. I suspect using something like a cup of egg white, a cup of corn starch, couple ounces of chicken fat and half an ounce of pork liver is about what you need to duplicate the main ingredients of K/D. That is about 1100 calories, 2 cans worth of the stuff. I misread your post, this stuff has a huge amount of fat in it, about 50% of the calories are from fat. One great thing about cooking it yourself is you are going to be able to fine tune just how much fat your dog gets. I would use fish oil instead of flax for omega 3 and your broth probably would be a better flavoring than chicken liver flavor.

This is the hard stuff for sure. This combination of heart and kidney disease seems to be quite common, I know the K9KD list addresses balancing the needs of both issues often. Probably the heart disease lists do as well. Sassy's grade 3 murmur got a little worse but the low sodium of the stuff I fed her had to help keep her more comfortable and I just walked her in cool weather basically so she didn't need to breath heavily. She never had any build up of fluid.

You might see if you can find Monica Segal's book, Optimal Nutrition. She has general heart and kidney diets in there and loads of information on diet strategies. You can calculate your dog's nutritional requirements so you know you are doing your best by your dog.

One great thing about the K9KidneyDiet list is they understand that sick dogs don't want to eat the same thing day after day and help you find alternate foods to tempt the appetite. I was lucky with Sassy, she either ate her usual food or she didn't want to eat at all and to the vet for ideas.

Keep reading about feeding kidney dogs. I don't know that K/D is a good idea to duplicate when it depends on pork liver for flavor but it is one way to start out I guess. I would use one of Dr. Strombeck's recipes myself.
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Tod

Pain Doesn't- Train		 
 
Barked: Sat Apr 7, '12 6:08pm PST 
I'm so sorry to hear about your poor doggie! The key is to cook with only kidney and heart friendly ingredients.

Good ingredients to use would be soybeans, almonds, green beans, radish, swiss chard, rice, cranberries, kiwi, asparagus, watercress, celery, nori, bell pepper, strawberries, nectarine, pumpkin, scallops, nuts, fish, sweet potato, grapefruit, carrots, coconut, papaya, shiitake mushrooms, winter squash, brazil nuts, apricot, corn, cashews, soy, peach, peanuts, cantaloupe, cod, tofu, lobster, crab, tuna, swordfish, red snapper, halibut, shrimp, olives, salmon, eggs, prunes, tomato, butternut squash, pine nuts, flaxseed, honey, apple, beans, millet, guava, pistachio nuts, raspberries, walnuts, banana, curly kale, melon, wheat germ, blackberries, tempeh, beets, avocado meat, palm oil, soy milk, broccoli, okra, lentils, amaranth leaf, oyster mushrooms, mulberries, and pecans.


I'm sure you can make a ton of recipes using those ingredients! happy dance
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Member Since
04/06/2012		 
 
Barked: Tue May 8, '12 1:19am PST 
Hey guys just wanted to say thanks again for the help! Sorry I haven't been around, we actually lost our other older dog while we were dealing with this one! I hate to even say it, but our Beautiful is much much better now (from what I can see, seems to me) but unfortunately our other dog went downhill literally in 1 day. .

Again I feel so frustrated because I wish I could have the same "back-up" as this company does veterinarian and doctor wise, as in I wish I could have veterinarians working for me to develop a special diet!! It's so frustrating to know that your dog could be doing much better if this company would only open up and at least give me a basic requirement to live by such as "so and so of protein" or "so and so of fat" . .

I feel helpless because k/d has been studied in a lab and dogs have been tested on it to see how they do and I can't just juggle around my dog's life with calculating her diet online! She is too important..
I feel helpless because I literally have all the ingredients to make my dog better but I don't know in which amounts to give these to her!

I have basically been following the dogaware diet, however I want to make a homemade version of the k/d because I really want that " back-up" of the science behind it! I also don't agree with dogaware that we should always be feeding muscle meats. I think with the egg white in k/d it's a little less "harsh" on the tummy then say beef or pork so again I feel frustrated because I want to give my dog what's best for her and I would be more comfortable going with a k/d style diet..

Basically like I said I am following dogaware diet, I use 1 oz of pork guanciale for the fat part, and I customize this daily based on her bowel movements, reducing down to almost .5 oz of fat if she has the runs! She tends to like beef so I have been giving her ground beef but like I said I don't want the ground beef to "wear out" her system, would love to try out just giving her egg whites as her protein for a few days but don't know how much to give her!!!
I then do a mix of heart, liver, and kidney for the 1 oz of organs! Sometimes I will leave this out since I am generally feeding two of these meals a day for her and sometimes it's too much organs! Again, this is why I get concerned because when I leave that 1 oz of organs out it throws off all of the nutritional things and this irks me because I don't want to play with fire like this, wish Hills could just help me out and give me some kind of basic basic formula..

I did check out the Sedona thread thank you so so much that is an amazing amazing thread, TONS of work however it would be worth it! Do you think I could use this to help me customize this diet for my dog and get one almost spot-on to the k/d formula??

Thank you guys so much I don't know what to do as I said I don't think k/d is god-like but I would be nicer going to sleep at night going with a good that has been studied in school by veterinarians and researched and such vs something I just threw together based on online webpages . .

Ok, thanks let me know if you have any advice smile

Edited by author Tue May 8, '12 1:20am PST

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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!		 
 
Barked: Tue May 8, '12 7:10am PST 
A 100,000,000,000,000% more important than using egg white and pork fat and liver to approximate the actual ingredients in the K/D is approximating the calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, iron, zinc, copper, niacin, B12, riboflavin, vitamin A, vitamin C and I could go on. Use ND and vitamin and mineral supplements to make it work. Sassy got a mineral supplement plus a bit more zinc, a B complex and of course calcium carbonate for calcium.

Prescription diets may be based on good science but they are motivated by low bottom line with nasty ingredients. Your using GMO free and pasture fed and all helps to a point though.
http://www.soggypaws.com/Documents/prescription_diet.pdf

Are you supplementing the egg white, pork fat and corn starch diet with vitamins and minerals? If not this diet isn't meeting the goals of K/D at all and you are scaring me a little.

If you trust authority then use the Donald Strombeck diets. He is a vet and been working for decades on this. Some of the diets are egg white but not corn starch as it is used because it is cheap rather than good.
http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/diet_and_chronic_renal_ disease.html#dog

That said, diet doesn't make this go away. It makes the dog more comfortable for the time he/she has left. Sassy had 2.5 great years after her diagnosis and 9 months of decline. For 3.5 years of that time she had home cooked food.
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