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Overbreeding Question

This is a forum to discuss legislation and legal matters pertaining to the rights and welfare of dogs. Please remember to counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice and responses.

  
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Member Since
02/07/2012		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 7, '12 5:28pm PST 
I have a question I am hoping someone can help me with. During the summer of last year my family and I had purchased a doberman pup from a breeder whom we thought was reputable. Our buisness encounter with her went smoothly at first, but towards the end started going bad. She wanted us to take the pup early at six weeks instead of the original eight. We were told we would get to pick between three pups and then were denied the opportunity because we could not go to the breeders home when it was convenient for her. Once we got the pup we were left with she had many problems including terrible mouthing. We tried to work with her for many months on her issues we even sent the pup to a board and train facility. We never could get her problems under control and she had continuing problems including food aggression and toy possesiveness, this was mainly around our cats that we had. We eventually had to give this dog back to the breeder. My concern is the breeder herself and the fact that she seems to continue to breed these dogs on a regular basis. The breeder owns the male dog and studs him out to many different females. The owners of the females take care of the pups for the first six weeks and then she takes them and cares for them for the remaining two weeks until they are eight weeks of age. I am extremely worried that she is overbreeding these dogs. She started breeding in october of 2010 and between then and now she has had over 60 puppies. She had a litter in december and the female had 13 puppies and another litter a couple of weeks later in january which had 14 puppies. She also plans to breed another dog next month. She and I are not on good terms from many things that my family and I were not satisfied with on her business techniques. My question is, is there a way to report this? I feel like she is bringing in way too many puppies in to this world and feel that at this point she is only in it for the money. I don't believe it is wrong to breed, but having bred over 60 puppies in a little over a year I feel like is a bit much, especially for a breed like the doberman which some people still do not think highly of. Does anyone think that this much breeding is too much? And if so is there anyway I can report it and try to get it stopped or at least toned down? Thanks for your time!
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Maggie

Wiggle-Butt		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 7, '12 11:13pm PST 
Perhaps unfortunately, breeding a lot of puppies just for the money is not illegal if her paperwork is in order, and her dogs receive adequate care (food, water, shelter, clean living environment, medical care as needed.)

There are some large breeding kennels that I feel are ethical and provide good care for their dogs- clean, warm, safe housing, good food, daily social interaction and exercise, enough staff to closely monitor every dog,etc. Most do not though.

Sounds like there were a lot of red flags before you even took this puppy home. Insisting you take a pup at six weeks is not right, and actually may be illegal (but check your local laws.)

Probably all you can do though is just learn from your mistake, and try to educate others about how to choose a better breeder.
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Crixus

1232791		 
 
Barked: Wed Feb 8, '12 9:02am PST 
Thank you for your input! Yes there were a lot of red flags and I wish now we had never become entangled with her. We went through a lot and we learned from the mistake. I just wish she would think about where some of these dogs may end up. I hate to think that any of them could end up in shelters. She has people sign a contract saying that the owners will return the dog if they can no longer keep or want it, but I worry about how many people will honor that contract. I am fine with people who breed, but do it in moderation not for profit. I thought there might no be anything I could do, but figured I woud ask and see.
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MIKA&KAI

Akita Pals- Always.
 
 
Barked: Wed Feb 8, '12 10:27am PST 
Having 40-60 puppies a year depending on the size of the kennel and breed of dog,as well as the number of breeding females doesn't seem all that excessive to me. The breeder we got Kai from as excellent and she often has females from other states that use her males for stud. She has 3 breeding females as well. Akita litters,just like Doberman litters tend to be large. Our breeder,does not breed her females unless she has at least 4 carefully screened homes for every potential puppy born in a litter. She generally still has a 6-18 month waiting list for her puppies. She has all of her breeding stock tested for genetic issues and certified by whichever organization does the testing prior to ever breeding them so her females are generally at least age 2 before breeding and have three to four litters during their lives,then they are retired and spayed.Usually around age 5. How often her males are used for stud,I don't know but,they are also retired at age 5. She will not breed any dog with a temperment issue,those are spayed or neutered as well as any potential breeding stock that has a genetic issue and rehomed in homes suitd to handle them. She matches pups carefully with potential homes and keeps in regular contact with everyone who gets one of her puppies. Her breeding stock,retired dogs that stay with her,and any puppies born there are well cared for,and have their needs for any type of care well taken care of. She also has an open door policy with all of her potential puppy homes. We visited her at least 3 times prior to the breeding of the female we were hoping for a puppy from was even bred,and she visited us as well and met Mika before deciding if we were the right type of home for one of her puppies. Then after the litter Kai was from was born we made 3 more visits before bringing him home,were given weekly updates on the litter,and she has remained in touch with us regularly since. I don't think the number of puppies makes a bad breeder as long as the breeding dogs and puppies are well cared for.
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Crixus

1232791		 
 
Barked: Wed Feb 8, '12 10:45am PST 
She doesn't have a kennel. The females she studs her male with are pets. They live in their homes and the owners of the females care for the pups for six weeks then give them to her until eight weeks of age. The parents have not undergone any genetic testing. Right now she has between 8-10 pups that she is still trying to find homes for. If she actually had a kennel I wouldn't be do upset about it all but she clealy is doing it as a means of income. She doesn't abuse or neglect the pups but I just feel she is adding too much to the Doberman population. Like I said she doesn't even have homes for quite a few of these puppies still and that really bothers me especially considering she plans to breed another female again next month. There is just a lot with this breeder that I feel is wrong. I mean why would you breed another dog when you still have puppies from two litters that you haven't sold? Just doesn't make sense to me. I do appreciate your input though! Oh by the way your Akitas are beautiful! We have an Akita now and he has been a much better fit for our family and he had a much better breeder!
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MIKA&KAI

Akita Pals- Always.
 
 
Barked: Thu Feb 9, '12 3:53am PST 
Thank-you,we think they are beautiful as well. It sounds like this Doberman breeder is just in it for the profit. The breeder we worked with isn't one of the big name,well established Akita kennels but she does do a really amazing job and is very careful. With all the testing and other care she gives the dogs,I don't think there is really much money in it for her,but more a love for the breed and bringing out the best in them by putting them in the right hands,I'm sure having one yourself,you understand what I mean,they do take alot of dedication,and alot of patience,along with a heap of socialization to be their best. Ours are wonderful family pets and adore little people as well. They are a little less likely to trust older kids(due to being teased by them)and adults are fine as long as they make no fast,threatening moves toward us,unless the dogs know them well.
I wish you luck in doing something about this Dobe breeder,but as long as she is within the law it's doubtful that you can,except by word of mouth. Getting word out to anyone considering doing business with her could easily leave her stuck with what she breeds and when she has to feed and care for them all because of dissatisfied buyers,she might get the hint. I'm sorry if you were offended in any way by my post,I just wanted to point out,that the number of puppies produced is much less of an issue than the care,quality,and concern for the puppies.
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Lucille

I am the Sock- Bandit!!!		 
 
Barked: Thu Feb 9, '12 9:05am PST 
No health testing is a huge red flag in Dobies...they are prone to many diseases that are inherited genetic disasters waiting to happen.

She sounds like a poor back yard breeder, not enough volume to really be considered a puppy mill. Neither are illegal, unfortunately for the health of dogs today. The only thing that might be illegal is forcing you to take the pup at six weeks (awful! especially for mouthing issues) and even that is legal in some states. Check your local laws and report this breeder if it's in violation.
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Crixus

1232791		 
 
Barked: Thu Feb 9, '12 2:26pm PST 
No offense taken at all. If she was running a kennel and had several dogs of her own and was doing everything properly like she should, then I would have no issues with her. All I want is for her to be responsible and not overbreed just for money. I will be checking to see what laws there are and if there is anything that can be done, but I don't believe much can be done since she isn't neglecting or abusing them. Its just extremely sad because a good portion of these pups may end up in shelters and they didn't ask to be brought in to all of this. It sounds like you found a wonderful breeder with your Akitas! I was fortunate to find a great breeder myself. Our Akita has been a much better fit for our family and we've had few problems with him and the ones we do have are very minor. Wish we had thought of the Akita breed first and saved ourselves all of the heartache and aggravation.
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MIKA&KAI

Akita Pals- Always.
 
 
Barked: Fri Feb 10, '12 5:33am PST 
I think sometimes,depending on the Akita profile you read,it can scare people away from the breed.Also the hair can be a real issue for some and if not trained and socialized early and properly,the idea can be quite scary. Also all of mine went through a period between the ages of 18 months and 3 years where cooperation and compliance with my wishes we not always at the top of their agenda. Alot of people who get them as puppies around here give them up at that stage because they don't know that it is manageable and will be outgrown. I hope that you are able to find some way to stop that Dobe breeder,my mother raised them back in the '70's and when things are done right,they can be wonderful as well but I only know the breed from back then,from my understanding alot has changed with the breed since. I wish you much luck and sucess in finding a way to stop an irresponsible breeder,I know it won't be easy. Sending pup pal request.
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!		 
 
Barked: Fri Feb 24, '12 12:41pm PST 
If you feel she is a less than reputable breeder, such as not testing and not breeding dogs titled dogs -- the biggest red flag for me is the 6 weeks! -- why don't you join a Doberman forum and ask about her. Maybe you could help someone else, too.

Reputable, ethical breeders with titled dogs still produce "pet quality" puppies out of their litters. Not every puppy is born to be a champion in anything. Usually these are sold on limited registration -- to be neutered or spayed at the appropriate time.
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