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Using the sperm of deceased dogs

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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Sun May 12, '13 6:30pm PST 
Tiller, while I worked to build weaknesses in my bitch line, I think I did succeed so I would want to bring him back to the better bitches I ended up with. Those bitches did get some of those weaknesses from him, but many also came from the bitches he was bred to. I would hope that I have learned enough about him to know where his strengths are and how to use them, something it takes many generations to find out, then that dog is old and you can't get back to him directly. Now, you can!
I dunno... It is amazing how fast a line type CAN get screwed up, too. Quincy is from all my old stuff on the bitch side...nice short coupled labs, yet his sire has a bit too much loin for my tastes...sadly, so did the entire litter, especially Quincy, the one I kept!!! Now, this frozen stuff could very well get me back to my shorter loins since it would be mostly line breeding on that same bitch line. He is behind them, but at the least seven or eight generations back. Ahh, dreaming!
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Tuck

CHIC CH. Tuck- CDX TDX RN VNEX- TDI SAR-W3
 
 
Barked: Mon May 13, '13 4:49am PST 
My dad was deceased when I was born. There is a 20 year spread between my birth and his birth
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Opheila

It ain't over- till the fat- kitty sings
 
 
Barked: Mon May 13, '13 4:35pm PST 
I agree with Tiller...I can understand there might be benefits, but it just seems sorta creepy...I dunno
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Vance CGC

You kids g'off- my lawn!
 
 
Barked: Mon May 13, '13 5:20pm PST 
Better than AIing hundreds of bitches off a still living dog's sperm, then finding out a few years down the road he has epilepsy and eventually dies of cancer.

I do know people with dogs of breeds that tend to have a lot of health problems who are (or have breeders who are) starting to freeze sperm to make sure a dog doesn't have some major problem pop up in old age (or in some cases, that the dog makes it to old age) before they pass his genes on.

As long as the sperm is screened with the same care as living dogs should be and kept with care, I don't have many issues with it. I have seen bad things happen from deceased dog sperm, but they were more about the breeder than the fact that sperm was from a deceased dog. Thinking specifically of a couple cases where a dog was going to be bred come hell or high water because the deceased sire was too valuable to waste, even though the pups had major temperament issues and physical problems like early onset arthritis. This happens with living dogs and natural breedings all the time too, though confused
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Bowser

squeak em if you- got em
 
 
Barked: Mon May 13, '13 10:04pm PST 
i think we should be more worried about the blatant breeding of unhealthy dogs than using frozen sperm. not suggesting anyone here does this or people who use frozen sperm does this. Just pointing out that if it helps get healthy puppies out of a bitch, im all for it. I am all for healthy breeds.
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Natcho

LabraDORK
 
 
Barked: Tue May 14, '13 6:08am PST 
'Where's my daddy?' 'He died 50 years ago!' laugh out loud A bit weird thinking your dad could be your great great great great grandpawrent. laugh out loud
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Tue May 14, '13 9:58am PST 
Ha! That's one of my issues. What an odd thing to have a dog in both the first and seveneth generation? shrug I mean, heck if I know, but it's def naturally improbable to impossible. Then again, I have funk with horses birthed from surrogate dams. I think even as humans, some people embrace that and others struggle with the concept, just because it is against the "natural order."

And I still have to wonder about results, for a producer had results produced from his (or approximate) generation. Those genetics. Which can't really be replicated. There are plenty of dogs from ago I'd be interested in, but at the same time wouldn't kid myself of the chance to be akin to the dogs he was throwing back in the day comprehensively, for the dam side of those genetics would feature contributions that weren't around in his time, and weren't in play with his breedings.

I can see some help in a genetic strength the dog was known to offer, but I would not expect a chance more than a "typical" breeding to develop exceptional dogs, as half of any resultant offspring would come from modern influences. So I couldn't really expect something that mirrored what he was siring (save for dogs who seemed to mark their offspring like nuts).
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UCH Onyx TT,- CGC

Do you even- lift?
 
 
Barked: Tue May 14, '13 12:56pm PST 
It is pretty interesting to think about crossing different generations like that. Very true that using a stud from 50 years ago with today's females would produce very different dogs than that stud produced when he was alive. But you never know, might still make really great dogs if you took the best of then and the best of now.

But, as you say, Tiller, some sires do seem to create "carbon copies" (to use Onyx's breeder's words about his sire) of themselves. So maybe it would be possible to come pretty close to replicating old dogs if done right. Of course I know very little on the subject, so that's just my layman's thoughts.

A lot more to this subject than I'd initially considered as I was just thinking about a dog that would have only been dead for a few years. Really fascinating to contemplate all the implications, especially in the future when many dogs will be immortalized via frozen sperm. I can see how it could make the whole popular sire thing even worse if people really went nuts with it, but used carefully it seems like it could create really interesting dogs.
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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Tue May 14, '13 2:41pm PST 
BUT...Tiller, by the same reasoning, he could produce BETTER bred to today's bitches. I know that in my labs, I had bitches I liked WAY more as my eye matured and my knowledge of who produced what in my pedigrees deepened.
Guess you are a pessimist and I am a hopeless optimist, because I was ALWAYS breeding for the perfect dog and was sure I was going to get in with the very next breeding!!! By adding a KNOWN sire back into the mix, that left me with one less unknown that I would be bringing in from an outside sire.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Tue May 14, '13 3:52pm PST 
Have you done this, Toto? Curious wink

Oh yes....and I am a total pessimist when it comes to breeding laugh out loud big laugh

I would wonder if this was your dog from like, say, twenty years ago. So now it is twenty years later, your line is much improved, but so are you as a breeder, perhaps within that your eye. Might you be a wee bit partial to a stud twenty years ago who did really good for you then, when maybe you didn't half know then what you know now? Could someone be misremembering, or taking for granted some things bred away from that he may have embodied in some way?

Or, and ok now from pessimist to hardbutt laugh out loud, and I am NOT saying this about you personally, as I do know your Lab line - was rather taken aback when I realized who Toto "was"! But at any rate, here you have this breeder, and in twenty years time, they are using this old stud....don't they have a stud who is by that stage superior? silenced To be frankly honest, if I really liked a breeder and things were getting all set to go forward and I learned they were utilizing a dog from twenty years ago, I may well stop to wonder how good a breeder could they be, if this is about improving each generation, to here we are many generations later and he's still of that sort of value, to where he would be the selection over many generations of improvement?

Onyx, some animals really do seem to throw themselves, and I think if your dog's sire is that sort, then you have stronger odds!

Edited by author Tue May 14, '13 3:54pm PST

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