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Using the sperm of deceased dogs

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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Sat May 11, '13 7:50pm PST 
Tiller, AI is totally allowed with Arabians, --apparently even after the sire has died--if I read the regs correctly just now --not sure how long that's been the case they could use frozen, I think that is more recent.

The Jockey Club however might take another 100 years . . .wink I asked a friend who's a race horse vet if they'd ever change on their AI stance and surrogate mothers--(we were talking about Rachel Alexandra and her trouble foaling)--he said there's so much money in contingent industries, like horse transport, etc. that profit mightily on the "old fashioned way" that he doubted they'd ever want to change.

It does seem kinda creepy to be allowed to use dead sires though. I mean what would the limitations be? 5 years, 30 years?

ETA: Just found this on wikipedia, apparently the bovine industry is way ahead of everybody! laugh out loud

The oldest semen believed to be in existence was from a sire named Cottonade Emmet, who was a member of the American Breeders Service sire battery in 1952. Semen was collected on Emmet in November 1952 and has been used several times to produce offspring. However, the last time any such offspring was born was in the mid-1980s. Osborndale Ivanhoe, who was probably the most famous Holstein bull of the early semen era, died in November 1963. From time to time calves will still be born from his frozen semen. shock

Edited by author Sat May 11, '13 7:59pm PST

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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Sat May 11, '13 8:17pm PST 
Ah, too late to edit, but just found the date, Tiller, it wasn't all that long ago, that the Arabian registry first adopted allowing breeding by "transported semen" into their regulations--1995.
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UCH Onyx TT,- CGC

Do you even- lift?
 
 
Barked: Sat May 11, '13 9:07pm PST 
Yeah it's not the AI part I find strange, it's the idea of a dead dog having puppies that's kind of unnerving when you think about it. I realize it's not really any different from an AI with a living dog, but it would be pretty crazy in the future to have a pup out of a dog that lived 100 years ago. Wouldn't stop me from getting a pup from the litter, but it would be weird.

Edited by author Sat May 11, '13 10:01pm PST

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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Sun May 12, '13 4:50am PST 
Yeah, I have a friend in Goldens who does it all the time. She has a pup now from an old dog from UK who has been dead for years. It IS a bit weird.
Unfortunately, my lab had a STD when he was collected so his sperm can only be used on my own dogs. I never understood why, but they DO have a whole bunch of regulations, including who can store the semen, etc. I have a friend who does storage for cattle semen and we tried to get her certified to store my dogs (it IS pricy!!!). but AKC wouldn't accept it.

Edited by author Sun May 12, '13 4:53am PST

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sun May 12, '13 9:15am PST 
Ooooo....that's new, Gus! Thanks for looking up the date, or I would have thought I had gone mad....last I was entrenched was in the early 90's. I know some people who would be flipping in their graves laugh out loud It was absolutely no, never hardcore stuff back when I was making a living with the breed, the feeling being it would protect its ruin. Particularly because Arabians tend to line and inbreed better than most, which was often the way you sustained a horse from old more actively in the blood line. It's actually there for a reason that certainly plagues the dog world....overuse of the bloodline. Some concept that less is more. On one count, it does keep the bloodline valuable. It also prevents a rampant spread of anything, which proved a bit more than a wee bit prophetic with the disaster with the QH Impressive, who was "covering" more than 150 a year and then the HYPP defect cropped up.

As for the question at hand, I admit to puritan on the issue, but I just find it awfully weird seeming to have dogs from bizarrely different generations bred together.

Edited by author Sun May 12, '13 9:17am PST

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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Sun May 12, '13 11:30am PST 
Here's another idea, Ridley's breeder also uses frozen she had collected from a young stud of hers that was tragically killed in an accident. It was a dog I can only assume was going to do great things for her based on his pedigree and what he'd already achieved before his passing, and it would have been a shame not to use him.

I guess I just don't see what's weird about it. I can see where maybe AI breeding on the whole would bother people, but the stud being alive or not... eh. Just nothing that bothers me personally.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sun May 12, '13 1:48pm PST 
I think it's a sensibility thing, generally. As I admitted, I am basically fessing up some puritanical kneejerk with long deceased sires. I guess mostly due to the vastly disconnected generations on time lines. And I think generally, the whole "nature's will" thing. Or in the case Mulder just gave. The dog was young, so who knows really how vigorous he was or what he would have cooked up. I understand the process and decisions to store sperm from young up and comers, it's just not something I'd do personally.

If I wanted to repeat a dog in some way, I'd go for the female line. That was a very interesting moment for me, mitochondrial dna. The Bedouin breeders always weighted the sire line as important through the first two generations and no farther, while the female line they considered of significance, even fifteen generations back. So it was rather awesome when centuries later science actually supported that gut feeling in some way. Pretty awesome.

I always weight the bitch's line more heavily than the sire. The immortal filly Ruffian just rustled the grave to have a horse from her family win the Kentucky Derby all these years later (and he's by a stallion who couldn't race past his second start), so I am not changing my mind anytime soon wink I'd be far more likely to pursue a dog of old through his female line. I actually keep track of Pogo's female family, which is still very strong and now that Karl Fuller is passed is even more pursued, so we're good on that front. His sire or grandfather (Held, very significant) have long been outmoded by this newer and less excellent version, and even were there frozen semen on the latter, you wouldn't be breeding him to the same bitches, or with the same expertise, as produced those dogs of old.

Edited by author Sun May 12, '13 2:04pm PST

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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Sun May 12, '13 5:14pm PST 
Tiller...that is the FUN of it... we always say "I wonder if old so and so would have made it in todays show ring?" Now, you can find out!
I fully intended to work my bitch line to where I was happy with it, THEN add the old guy back into that first/second generation again. That way you can see what the old guy really did for you way back when you were working on the bitch line!!
Too bad I got old...now, when we can stop aging, that will really be something!!! My mind is still willing, my body just can't chase those labs around anymore!!!
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sun May 12, '13 5:43pm PST 
So you are small, right? Then, fantasy realm here, if you have this stored sperm do you build off bitches who lacked his blood, or do you use bitches who had his blood? And then, how do you deal with the inevitable newer lines that have come since his generation that the bitch now holds....is that an experiment, or are you fairly confident in the result?

I remain hopelessly in love with a dog Tiller's breeder had in the 80/'90's who put the breed on the map. Look of eagles, won the national specialty, Annie Clark called him a goose pimple dog and they only took him off the campaign trail due to sabotage. His disposition was out of this WORLD. My next Giant I'd want to reflect him (as was true of my first), but his female family is still around as is the sire line, so my gut would to move back, vs forward.

What's the contribution, for someone like you? I know they used/continue to use the sperm of the immortal Crufts/Westminster Kerry Mick just because he was a perfect sire. Few are that, though. Isn't it so that for whatever a stud was, there was something you were using bitches to correct? So if so, you'd need to cherry pick that bitch carefully or you would be reintroducing weaknesses hopefully since bred away from?

Finally.....are you seeking to replicate him, or are you trying to modernize him?
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Scooter

Work hard; Play- harder.
 
 
Barked: Sun May 12, '13 5:49pm PST 
It's becoming more common with the ADBA APBTs; they do, however, require the animal be DNA'd before the samples are stored and all pups must be DNA'd before they will register the litter.
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