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For Way down the road!!! Breeds and traits for Schutzhund & Search & Rescue!!

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
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Jake & Sweet- Caroline

Tricolored- Hounds for life!
 
 
Barked: Sun Mar 31, '13 9:51pm PST 
As this is stated. it's for way down the road. I mean we're talking 4-8 years from now. But I would like to know what types of breeds can do Schutzhund and or search and rescue.

What are some things you look for in dogs that can do Schutzhund and/ or Search and Rescue.

For Schutzhund: What breeds? What are the definative characteristics and how far can you take schutzhund? Does the dog have to be used as a protection dog outside of Schutzhund trials or do you use Schutzhund to train protection dogs? Do all protection dogs learn Schutzhund?

** Sorry if i sound dumb asking all those questions but I am curious in one day having a protection dog and hoping my next dog will be a protection dog.

Similar questions for Search and Rescue dog breeds. Can any dog be a search and rescue dog or is it breed/specific? as in do they have to be a hound or hound mix? Or can you train other types of working dogs? Mixes/Mutts?

Thanks for your wisdom in advance!!
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Lenny

Lenny -The- Wrecking Ball
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 8:07am PST 
I am not well informed on Schutzhund other than a Schutzhund dog and a PPD are VERY different. One is a sport, it's a game to the dog. A PPD is not playing a game. They are trained (a long process and must be done with the right trainer and the right dog) to be vigilant and detect dangerous situations and if necessary protect their handler. Anyone looking into training or having a real PPD must be aware of the work that must be done otherwise it's a dangerous situation.

Search and Rescue is NOT breed specific, rather trait specific. You need a dog with a strong drive, lots of energy and one that does not give up in their search. The dog must have a very sound temperament and loves people. Usually they have a strong toy drive and that is used when they are trained to find people, in their mind they are searching for people to play with (from what I've read and seen on documentaries). Most dogs are medium sized dogs, too small of a dog isn't a good size but a very large dog could have trouble maneuvering rubble and tight places where they need to search. There's a group that trains somewhat local to me, and on their page they're very open for people to come and watch training sessions and ask questions. They invite new people to bring their dog to be evaluated (dogs of certain age and of certain training level) and if the dogs does well or seems to have potential then they're invited to further training sessions. But the training isn't just for the dog but also for you since there are a lot of skills you must learn as well. Some dogs in shelters or rescues are given up because they have too much energy or they're destructive because they're a dog that needs a job, that's the dog you find to work with on S&R. A lot of herding breeds or other working breeds like the gun dogs or their mixes are common as S&R dogs since they commonly meet a lot of that criteria. But other breeds can be seen too, such as hound mixes. just depends on the individual dog.

Hopefully someone who has experience in S&R can give you more personal insight, and maybe Mulder will chime in on Schutzhund and PPDs.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 8:52am PST 
Lenny is right way to go Schutzhund, when it was developed, was a "test for potential" for German Shepherds, and what that means in a nutshell is does this dog show promise as a working dog? It was used to assess breeding worthiness. It deals, at least ostensibly, with the courage, nerves, biddability, desire to work, etc. of the dog. Particularly in the sport it is today, it is essentially a game. Dogs are brought up on the tug and in time graduated to a suit which happens to have a man in it. Schutzhund is mostly working with a dog's prey drive, vs protection which is most working with defensive drive, and those are two different bananas. The closest one comes to it in a sport is probably PSA, but generally speaking sport pursuits alongside a PPD is not a typical course.

SAR is open to many, far beyond just hounds. GSDs, Goldens and Labs are *extremely* common, and many other breeds as well. It's easy to forget I suppose, but back in the day don't forget that Saint Bernards were developed quite specifically for that purpose wink
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Jake & Sweet- Caroline

Tricolored- Hounds for life!
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 10:46am PST 
Ah thank you Tiller and Lenny!

I guess the one i was asking for is the Personal Protection Dog then. When I read a little it mentioned Schutzhund was something they learn. That's why I asked.

I guess I am looking into a potential protection dog for the future. So would a German Shepard Dog be the best bet? are there other breeds?

PPDs are specific for work/protection or can they act like "pets" in that they're family dogs (they can be around children) , can they be around other animals (cats/dogs/livestock)?

I guess I'm asking because I plan to move to a farm after college is over and kind of want some extra protection. If that makes sense. ??

Thanks for your information.

Or should i be looking for something else?
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Star BN RN- RA

IM too CUTE
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 11:07am PST 
Im not too familiar with the PPD's but the search and rescue group around me is open too all breeds although they tend to have more medium sized heavy coated dogs as it gets very cold where I am and the short haired dogs get a little to cold sometimes. They also told me that while small dogs and very large dogs can do S&R they sometimes have trouble navigating through thick brush.

My friend uses her border collies to do S&R but there are labs, goldens, GSD's, and a bunch of mixes (usually lab or hounds type that people got as puppies).
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Jake & Sweet- Caroline

Tricolored- Hounds for life!
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 11:12am PST 
Thank you Star!

Maybe if i ever get a Harrier or another hound type I'll take up a search and Rescue group to learn. I taught jake tracking he's pretty good at it.

And i was thinking of in the future working with S&R in the future.

Thanks again!! big grin

Though I don't think i would use the PPD for SAR since PPD would be mostly for the home and S&R if we were needed. Can the dog do both? That's more a curious question then a i'm aiming for it question.
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Miyu CGC

Bow down to the- Princess Brat!
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 12:25pm PST 
Hopefully Mulder will chime in, but I don't see why the right dog couldn't do both PPD and SAR. In effect that's what some of the police K-9s do. I would say start with a good GSD. Others can do it as well, but a great GSD is a lot more stable than say, a Mal. Plus a bit easier, too. Malinois are another great all rounder breed, but WHOA NELLY. That's a lotta dog.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 1:07pm PST 
PPDs *are* pets! They need to be socially tolerant, very stable, and the bond they share with their family is critical. There is a difference between a PPD and a K9, the latter are far more crackhead-like. They, too, need that bond with their handler and do typically go home with them at night, but per the individual some are kenneled there and some are out in the yard playing with the kids. PPDs are typically more social and wouldn't thrive stuck in the back of a car most of the time. Many are family dogs are utterly trustworthy with friends of the kids in the home.

Quite a few breeds qualify as good PPD prospects, so it can be quite a long list. German Shepherds, of course, and they probably are the easiest. Rottweilers. Malinois. Giant Schnauzer. Pit Bulls, although due to the controversies only a select number of PPD trainers work with them. And there are smaller breeds, too. Rarer, as you want a PPD to be a "man stopper." So those usually are the midsize terriers.

The trick about PPDs, however, is that they don't grow on trees. It generally isn't reasonable to get a puppy and expect him to grow up to be a PPD. You can either buy one and work with his trainer to develop the relationship, or get a dog a little older, as in a year old or so, who is showing the potential and then work with a good trainer.

Hopefully that's what you were asking?
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Jake & Sweet- Caroline

Tricolored- Hounds for life!
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 2:32pm PST 
Thanks Tiller! That's exactly what i was asking for the PPD question. I guess I still have so much to learn. I knew one K-9 Officer wasn't aware he was different from a PPD. Thanks for explaining that to me.

PPD does sound like what i'm looking for since I still want a devoted family dog that can be a "man-stopper" should that situation ever arise.Yet he/she would be good with family friends and visitors.

It also helps to know that they "Dont' grow on trees" now. So I know I"ll have to look around when it's time for the next one.

Do you have to send these dogs to some sort of speical camp? or can you be present? I remember an article on dogster talking about a man who "trained" PPDs i believe that people sent to him. But in the end he was just an animal abuser. Something about Boot camp from hell i believe but not entirely sure.

Though that last bit can really be discussed later I guess since this new dog will be at least 3-4 years down the road since i'm still in school now big grin
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Lenny

Lenny -The- Wrecking Ball
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 1, '13 2:34pm PST 
You're looking for some protection and company since you'll be kind of by yourself on your farm, a lot of breeds without even PPD training would serve a good purpose. Many breeds tend to have a natural protective instinct, if not of you specifically most will at least be protective of their territory. If it was me I'd search for a dog that was already adult and had the right nerves (not too twitchy or reactive) who was maybe a barker to announce when people would approach the property and then train that dog in SAR. You could go the puppy route to make sure the dog was socialized to your liking, but me personally I'm anti-puppy lol So that's just what I would do. Wouldn't be too difficult to reach out especially to breed specific rescues once you narrowed your breeds down and say kinda what you're looking for and what you plan to do and then I'm sure they'd help you find a dog who fits the bill whether it be a German Shepherd or not.

Tiller does make sense explaining doing both is essentially what police K9's do, but I feel trying to train both and finding good support groups for both would be quite a challenge. Not that it couldn't be done, but I know how long I had to search for a SAR group somewhat local to me (and I use local loosely) and I'm sure it would be just as hard if not harder to find the right PPD trainer. And finding a dog who would be made for personal protection work is probably harder than finding a dog who would love the job as a SAR dog. At least I would think. shrug
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