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PRA/RCD4 in Setters

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder		 
 
Barked: Mon Oct 29, '12 6:41pm PST 
Just curious for those of you more in the know about sporting dogs than I... what is the breeding standard for dogs affected with PRA/RCD4?

I have been picking through some Gordon breeders, and of the few that post the results, I didn't find a single one with a dog clear of RCD4.

Is it that rampant in the gene pool that they are forced to breed these dogs? What's the thought behind this? Why is it worth the investment to buy into a pup who you more or less KNOW will develop this condition?

Just curious.
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!		 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 11:45am PST 
I wouldn't know the least thing about finding a Gordon short of asking around on a sporting breed forum, but a little searching about the gene led me to the fact that it was a UK developed test. I also saw American dogs who were both carriers and clears being bred in various kennels.
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Toto, CD,- RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 12:13pm PST 
I can only relate it to my experience with toy poodles and PRA. So many lines are affected that type and other good stuff was being lost in the search to find clears to breed.
My first toy, Ali, finished her Championship quickly with four majors and was deemed extremely worthy to breed. She tested as a carrier for PRA. She was still bred and had three litters. In all three cases, she was bred to clear males, knowing that NONE of the pups could ever be affected and that any I sold would be spayed/neutered. Those I kept for show were tested and again, if they were carriers, would only be bred to clears.
I did not keep ANY males that were carriers as I have much less control over the puppies they may produce...it is pretty much up to the owner of the bitch to make sure the pups are all tested and/or the pups are spayed/neutered.
Unfortunately, the incidence of these issues is quite common in MANY breeds and, with the advent of DNA testing, it is now possible to not have to throw out the baby with the bath water.
I am currently awaiting the birth of a Frenchie litter. The DNA test for juvenile cataracts was not developed until several years ago and it turned out that her grandfather was a carrier (determined when one of his litters produced a pup with juvenile cataracts years ago prior to development of the testing). Because it is extremely expensive for this test and I am only going to breed this girl once, I chose to breed her to a Clear sire and will test any pup I keep for show/breeding. Again, they cannot have the disease, they can only be a carrier so it is a pretty safe thing to do, especially since my bitch has a statistical probabilty of less than 50% to be a carrier since her granddam was clear (determined by test breeding) and her sire was also clear, (again by test breeding).
The sire of this expected litter, also mine, was the ONLY still living one out of his extremely popular sire (who, based on what he produced, was likely to have been AT LEAST a carrier), to be alive when the test was developed and he was tested clear so it was also important to me to be able to keep him in my line.

Edited by author Tue Oct 30, '12 12:26pm PST

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Mulder

Spooky Mulder		 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 12:35pm PST 
The ones I were looking at were from the parent clubs (very limited) breeder list. I wasn't doing any real sleuthing, it was just something I noticed in the 7-8 kennels I picked through.

I'm certainly not in the market for another dog... I just like Gordon's and was curious! It seemed like a prevalent issue, so I was wondering what was up.

Edited by author Tue Oct 30, '12 12:36pm PST

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Toto, CD,- RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 12:46pm PST 
I can say, I would NEVER dare breed an affected toy poodle OR Frenchie, although I know it is done by breeding to clears. You would get carriers, but, then you could continue with only breeding the carriers to clears.
From what I gathered, this disease is an extremely late onset, normally 10 or older in Gordons, so that could possibly have some bearing on breeding them as well???
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Gemini

Love Me		 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 1:24pm PST 
Hi all, I am extremely interested in this because I do have PRA. Toto what do you mean by extremely late onset? I was completely blind by the time I was three. I really don't know allot about PRA but would love to educate myself.

Moulder I got Gem before I really knew about breeders etc. and my case was inline breeding (backyard breeders). Gem's father is also his grandfather so obvioulsly he was doomed to have it. Although I did meet his dad which it was not too obvious if he did have it I did not meet the mom. But most people wouldn't even know that Gem is blind. So his father could have been too. I don't think he has realized it yet.
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Toto, CD,- RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 1:52pm PST 
PRA is generally a later onset disease in those breeds that have issues with it. In the poodle it is seldom seen before 5 years of age, labs are normally 7 or older and, as I just learned, in Gordons it isn't there until 10 or more.
Depending on the breed there are different genes/markers for it, and PRA isn't the same disease in all these breeds, it is sort of a generic term.
If you do a search for PRA in dogs, then look up your dog's breed you can generally find out which type affects that breed and the age of onset, progression, etc.
The dog requires two of the mutated gene to be affected, as in have the disease present. With only one mutated gene, the dog is a carrier and if bred to another carrier can produce affected dogs, but a carrier dog will never exhibit the disease. If the dog tests clear there is no mutated gene and the dog will never have the disease nor can it ever produce a mutated gene, no matter if it is bred to a carrier or even an affected dog.
Unfortunately, a breed can have more than one type of PRA, and DNA tests have not been developed for all strains in all breeds. The type of PRA a breed has or a test is used for is identified by different letters, as in the Gorden Setter is affected by RCD4 PRA. I honestly cannot remember the letters preceeding the poodle type or the lab type but they both require a different test to determine that dog's status.
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Gemini

Love Me		 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 1:54pm PST 
thanks Toto I will look into it. I appreciate the info!
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Toto, CD,- RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 2:23pm PST 
I "think" GSD's have retinal dysplasia which is a different type of PRA and is normally an early onset. It is also, I believe, mostly limited to white GSD's.
In Labradors, retinal dysplasia, strangely enough, doesn't always lead to blindness as it can be of different degrees, for example, a lab can have just a few retinal folds in one eye. It can be diagnosed with an eye exam in young puppies so it isn't such a major issue in breeding, or at least wasn't dependent on a DNA test to predict. It is also pretty much confined to field bred labs of certain lines. And, somehow, someway, a "double dose" of retinal dysplasia can also produce dwarfism in those affected puppies.
Sadly, labs also have "regular" PRA like these setters and the poodles.
I have bred and shown three breeds over the years and somehow, someway, picked three which can all have PRA. It isn't terribly common in Frenchies, however, nor is it a major issue in Mini poodles except those lines which combined toys in their pedigrees.
Sadly, poodles can have over TWENTY FIVE different eye issues!!!
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Buster

1201864		 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 30, '12 2:42pm PST 
Gordons aren't exactly a numerous breed but here with Irish and Irish red and whites they managed to severely reduce CLAD by making the health testing mandatory for registration and only clear/clear or carrier/clear matings allowed. Irish red and whites at least have a tiny gene pool and it was doable with them but I would guess it brought it's own problems.

I know an elkhound breeder who is very frustrated because she tests for PRA which is late onset in the breed, but the breeders in Norway don't because it doesn't affect them until the end of their working lives generally. So she's having to only use clear bitches if she takes them to Norway to be mated. It might be something similar with gordons if it's late onset.
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