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The Miniature Schnauzer: An In-Depth Consideration

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

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Cohen CD RE- ADC SGDC- FDCh CGN

The Monster
 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 27, '13 10:24am PST 
Most people who are breeding dogs for aesthetics aren't really doing it "right" in my humble opinion (and this includes loads of show-focused breeder). Breeding dogs for colour is generally a poor reason to decide to breed, and once a breeder focuses intently on a certain colour then they almost inevitably compromise some of the more important aspects of breeding ethically, like temperament, structure or health. A dog is so much more than its colour.

You may have lucked out with your dogs (and I hope you did!) but too frequently it really is just a roll of the dice. A dog will be your companion for life, and to me it makes sense to strive for the best when searching for one. I understand you feeling defensive, but if you hang around Dogster for a while you'll get a better feel for what it is we're talking about.

Edited by author Wed Mar 27, '13 10:25am PST

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Bender

1289788
 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 27, '13 10:28am PST 
And thanks to Cohen. That is my point! They are still awesome dogs, and lovely pets!!!! Apparently if they're not pure schnauzer I should have just went with another breed...Funny.

And I wanted to post some info from the MSCA website just to educate those who may feel harshly about the breed, or how it came to be.

"As most people know a Merle Schnauzer is not a genetic mistake by breeders. We were interested in bringing a new exotic look to the great breed of Schnauzers. As our forefathers have done before us we would have to bred in a new breed to make such changes. In doing so breeders have chosen several different breeds to cross bred in. Some of the cross breeding being done had much thought put into genetic's and what new good things would be added to the bred. A warning to all buyer though that some of the cross bred's were done with no thought at all, just wanting to get the Merle gene at any cost. This page is designed to educate you on all cross's. With all crossings of two different pure breeds a whole new set of genetics apply. No matter how many times you use one breed the original genetics still linger from both breeds crossed. As AKC says, "You will still pull genetics for atleast 50 years or more". And we here at the MSCA can prove this by simply asking you who have had a Schnauzers to think about how old the genetics are and how today our little bearded friends are still behaving like their ancestors. They still want to be watch dogs, heard our livestock and be a ratter."

So regardless of how long you have been breeding two "pure" dogs the cross from the past will still show up in temperament." This organization has made it their goal to assure that their registered dogs are not improperly bred. That is why we made sure our two were MSCA approved, that's all. Both male and female are merle and fixed!
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Bender

1289788
 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 27, '13 11:03am PST 
Yes, we were very lucky to have found our breeder. She takes much pride in making sure the blood line is strong.

Looking at their paperwork they have merle only on dad's side. Mom is pure salt and pepper. Over 8 generations the first introduction of aussie was one time only and since then the merles were always bred with a pure minis. So I feel her breeding practices have been very responsible. We know that two merles can never mate due to genetic defect. There has been none of that in their blood line. That is why we went the extra step to find an ethical breeder. They have also had full blood work done to check liver and other problems known to be common in the schnauzer. Both are very healthy. And happy to say no eye problems!
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Bender

1289788
 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 27, '13 11:12am PST 
Anyway I'm done talking about this...I have a real life to get back to. You won't see me back on this site!!!!! People have way too much time on their hands. I'd rather be out walking my beautiful healthy dogs. Merles Rock!!!!
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 27, '13 12:56pm PST 
Ok, that's fine. I am sure you love your dogs and nothing I say disregards that. They are not Miniature Schnauzers, however, nor per the basic ethics have they been responsibly bred, as will be outlined here.

FIRSTLY, the Schnauzers are not size varieties. They are three distinct breeds, the Giant and Mini rooting off the Standard Schnauzer. Each of these dogs had different functions and expectations and are distinct, unlike something such as the Poodles. Forebearers of the Mini link back to the 1400's, with more concerted attempts, which primarily focused on breeding the Mini down with the Affenpinscher. The latter was a fine choice due to the correct coat and his bold, terrier-esque temperament. All, by the way, GERMAN. Schnauzers are German dogs. Australian Shepherds would make blood very hard to stabilize and are an overt breeding away from correct Mini type and character. They are a herding breed with a soft temperament who lack the specific balance the Schnauzers are famed for. Much has been done with the Minis to make them the most even and non reactive of the Schnauzers. Crossing in herding blood is not what you do.

If one wants to consider the subject of outcrossing, they could reference the Dalmatian project, where the Pointer was selected to introduce genetic diversity. Type was not significantly deviating from that of the Dalmatian, things such as energy level and function were not counter between the breeds. Aussies are a very poor choice for an outcross. Their type is counter, their function is counter, the sensitivity and reactivity to occur (typical with herding breeds) is decidedly UN Schnauzer, and given their plethora of health problems, far from an ethical selection.

As for health testing....there is none. What health testing has been done on your dog's parents? The answer is likely slim to none, as it would require a lot more than blood tests. I diligently went through EVERY breeder listed on the MSCA. Not one, not ONE, breeder health tests. No eye problems you say? Fine - where is the CERF testing? What about cardio exams?

There is also no breed standard listed on the MSCA. You cannot standardize without a standard. The type on these dogs is bloody awful if they are to be considered Schnauzers. THIS is what a correct Mini looks like. Type on the sites is not only weak where seldom a good headpiece....a true hallmark of this breed....can be found, and the coats also are awful (ok if they are not Schnauzers, which THEY ARE NOT), but in the occasional examples where a breeder dares list an actual pedigree, they are incredibly weak, puppy mill-ish pedigrees which make no use of the top bloodlines of today that yield a top Mini in terms of health, type and character. Which is not a surprise as no decent Mini breeder would sell one of their own into these sorts of programs.

Summary....if the subject is Miniature Schnauzers, this is not the right site to promote the merle Mini. Not by my say so but by the general consensus of community members.

The proof is in the pudding and the MSCA site is available for all to review at their own discretion. I think it says LOADS, and none of it good.

Not to say individuals can't be very nice dogs or are not loved by the people. But they are not Miniature Schnauzers, they are not a breed, and a review of breeder sites would find ethical practices oh so sorely lacking.

Edited by author Wed Mar 27, '13 1:10pm PST

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Bunny

Black dogs rock!
 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 27, '13 1:44pm PST 
Sorry you don't want to hang around and learn more about this awesome community and it's members, Bender. Too bad you will never know what you are missingsmile
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Buster

1201864
 
 
Barked: Wed Mar 27, '13 2:16pm PST 
Any club that recognises a commercial breeder breeding for teacup schnauzers among things isn't worth listening to imo. First link in their member database.

I think breeding merle into a breed that doesn't have it is dangerous. It's such a fashionable colour that people would jump on the bandwagon and either through ignorance or greed breed double merles.

Schnauzers are amazing dogs why breed a mix that could change them so much.

Edited by author Wed Mar 27, '13 2:18pm PST

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Dogster HQ


 
 
Barked: Thu Mar 28, '13 8:14am PST 
Hi,

We have closed this thread. Threads can be closed temporarily or permanently for a variety of reasons. Some of the most common reasons are: the thread has gone off topic; the thread is not in the 'spirit' of Dogster; the thread is no longer fun, friendly or informational; the thread has been discussed at length in other threads; or we cannot provide adequate moderation at this time.

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