GO!

America vs. Germany: the Boxer

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
(Page 1 of 3: Viewing entries 1 to 10)  
Page Links: 1  2  3  
Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Wed May 26, '10 3:02pm PST 
So here's a fun, totally not argumentative idea for a series of threads laugh out loud

I'll be upfront and say that the Boxer is not a dog I have any large interest in owning. Plenty of fine dogs, and certainly a pleasure character-wise, but simply not for me.

But because the Am vs. Euro debate is always a fun one to get started, lets talk about how it relates to the Boxer. (Big thanks to a question on the "Answers" second of dogster for once again getting my wheels'a turnin!)

This breed, like so many others, seen to suffer a split. Most of the Boxers today are thought of as "goofy", fun-loving, never meet a stranger/never hurt a fly type dog. I'll admit, even I see this as the "typical" Boxer. But true to form, Germany always has another version of the story to tell.

So what is it, exactly? I was snooping around on a Boxer forum, and having seen several threads where this debate has already been threshed out, I can see the general consensus is that there IS no split, and that the difference between the Am/German Boxer is as simple as the place of its birth.

However, that debate seems highly conformational in nature, with little regard to the temperament. Every Boxer I've come across that was actually being used for a working purpose was off of German (or European) lines.

Now tell me, my favorite personal protection people, how does a Boxer work? Is this an all-prey dog, or is he a defensive/fight player? Is it possible that these "American" Boxers, who are still known to have high prey drive, are simply lacking in usage? Or have the good protection traits of this dog genuinely been watered down into another "show type"? Or is it simply the intoxication of the word "German" that makes people prefer this line for working purposes?

If I were to set my mind on getting a Boxer for Personal Protection work, where would I go? IS there a place to go? Or are these dogs more sport than real world?

Speaking of sport, if I did want a dog for that (schutzhund specifically), where would I go? If I went to an American breeder, breeding dogs off of long-standing American lines, how far could I get? Even for piddly club-level stuff, what are the odds of getting a Sch1 on a an American dog?

So many questions big grin
My apologies to Tiller and Cain... but inquiring minds do so badly want to know!
[notify]
Tucker, CGC,- TDI

Bloggin' Dog
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 7:27am PST 
I have no idea, Mulder, but I'll be very interested to hear what Mesdames Tiller & Cain have to say about this. Ladies?
[notify]
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 9:14am PST 
WTF is up with Mulder? shrug Boredom?

Well, let me entertain. I've pulled my Koehler book out, where he briefly discusses breeds of PPD potential waaay back a half century ago. Keeping in mind, Mulder, this guy was a military and PPD icon. He definitely promotes the Chesapeake Bay Retriever...obviously is impressed. Bemoans popularity ruining whatever potential the Weim could have had. Scoffs at the Briard somewhat, as well as, interestingly, the Airedale (who had become a very popular pet in this country, with breeding to reflect that). Gives props to the Standard Schnauzer, and a long favored line for the Kerry Blue....."has the demoralizing agility that can make a person look ridiculous." Also gives props to the Chow, and.....grip yourself here, Muldie.....the DALMATIAN! Oooo, say it ain't so, Pongo! laugh out loud The Disney trainer thinks you have merit as a badarse! laugh out loud

And I will say, I will quote the Am Staff paragraph in its entirety, just to reflect a different time and in what esteem this breed was held -

"The Staff is another one of those breeds that is brought to the highest levels of usefulness by OB training. When he has had such training, he is one of the greatest of all dogs. To the great surprise of those who view him only as a fighting dog, he accepts the presence of other animals and will focus his outstanding abilities on the job of being a companion and protector. He has the senses, intelligence and strength to do many different jobs. No other breed has such a documentable record of gameness. Because of his overall strength and hard bite, a Staffordshire can be much smaller than the averages given below and still be all the dog needed to be a manstopper."

To the subject at hand, it may surprise you to learn that the very first PPD dog I came to know was a Boxer. He was white, built like a rhino, and owned by a huge black man. They were quite a thing to see together! He was everything you could want. Steely nerved, he could be around chaos and not flinch. Extremely devoted to his guy, who he never took his eyes off of. Maybe it was because he was my "first," but I remain awesomely impressed by him.

Buuuut laugh out loud First of all, there is a huge difference between a German working Boxer and the American Boxer. However, also a huge difference between what a Boxer *was* and what he is now. Boxers got super popular as pets at a time when the whole PPD thing was finding its bearings in commonplace society. Koehler's comments back then reflect what was the thought of that time, and what was truly embraced....that the Boxer was one of the most ideal breeds with children. That was his fame. He had a lot more "hook" there than with the protection people.

I think, Mulder, one thing to always keep in mind that when breeds "split," it is not always for this *one* reason. I can't quite say the Boxer "split" as much as he is now holding on. He's always been a playful dog....that is in his character. He's also a bully, so he's game as a determined warthog....tough as nails and with a "when hell freezes over" sort of a style. And loyal. VERY loyal, very in love with his people. But that German sensibility of "responsible," and that deeply seated character have not been a Boxer thing for an eon. Discretion not quite in line, biddability not quite in line, work ethic not quite in line. So all told, not quite in line.

If you want to refer to the Staffy comments above, one thing Koehler is giving plaudits to is a very high level of discipline that can be brought to the fore through OB training. That is a Staff's stock and trade essentially....what separates from so many other bully types, who all told are appreciably less stable/more stubborn and self-inclined when really drilled in obedience.

From Germany now, you will get a tougher edged Boxer, for sure. American Boxers are often too happy pants in their characters. For Schutzhund, though....what Schutzhund is NOW.....you probably could develop either, with props given to the German side as they are less jokesters than the Americans are. As protection dogs, though, the Boxer was falling by the wayside a lot sooner than show and pet crazes had much to do with it. He's a great guy, but a fairly self indulgent dog. You can even see reflections of this in the Bullmastiff, who today remains a fine guardian breed. But when he makes his mind up, he's not going to be swayed by anything, including his handler, and is much too sensitive to be agitated and not have it penetrate his thick skin to the point where he is unreliable. The "tightest" of the bullies definitely is the Staff.
[notify]

Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 3:50pm PST 
WTF is up with Mulder? Boredom?

Yes red face
Well, this one was anyway. I messed up my ankle on Monday while walking Mo... so I've had to sacrifice doing "fun" stuff in favor of snooping around on Boxer forums cry

But on the subject of Staffies. I remeber Cain telling stories of the APBT that her 'hula breeder trained as a PPD. The one that broke someone's (was it a decoy, or an actual intruder? I forget...) arm.

But I was under the impression that that was highly out of the norm for a Pit? To actually stay on a person during an attack like that?

Then again, for a dog toted for its "gameness", I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
[notify]
Tucker, CGC,- TDI

Bloggin' Dog
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 7:55pm PST 
Mulder, sorry you're gimping! Feel better soon!
[notify]
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 10:47pm PST 
Aw, Mulder....I am so sorry you're jammed up this week!!!!! I was just teasing you anyway - I adore your passion!

To be honest and frank, some of the positive Pit press is a little over zealous. If a Staffy thinks someone is trying to harm their family, they are not going to "lick the assailant to death" wink If you do a search on "hero" Pit types, you will find plenty who kick it when it deserves kicking. Indeed, I think a year ago here someone posted an account of a STRAY having a go at someone attacking a woman. Not even her person, and the dog had enough troubles of her own. As for that bite....OUCHIE! laugh out loud Stable as boulders, though, and they can take a carp load of training.
[notify]
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 10:51pm PST 
FOUND IT.....c&p'ing it for you here, Mulder!

PORT CHARLOTTE, Fla. -- The wandering 65-pound Pit Bull mix might have seemed menacing to some passerby, but one woman will always remember him as her "guardian angel."

The dog, which authorities think is lost and not a stray, successfully thwarted a robbery attack on a mother and her 2-year-old son, who were held at knifepoint Monday afternoon.

The Florida woman, who has been identified by authorities simply as "Angela," was leaving a playground with her toddler son in Port Charlotte when a man approached her in the parking lot with a knife and told her not to make any noise or sudden movements.

Angela didn't have to do either to protect herself and her child -- a dog mysteriously ran to the scene and charged the man, who quickly fled.

"I don't think the dog physically attacked the man, but he went at him and was showing signs of aggression, just baring his teeth and growling and barking. It was clear he was trying to defend this woman," Animal Control Lt. Brian Jones told Pet Pulse.

"I don't know what this man's intentions were, but it is very possible this dog saved her life."

The exceptional part of the story, Jones said, is that the dog had never met or even seen the people it quickly jumped to defend.

"You hear about family dogs protecting their owners, but this dog had nothing to do with this woman or her kid," Jones said. "He was like her guardian angel."

After the alleged thief ran away, Angela quickly placed her son, Jordan, in the car and tried to drive off. Before she could, though, the dog jumped into her backseat, waiting with her for the police and animal control officers to arrive at the scene.

The dog was transported to a local shelter and if his owners don't step forward within five days, Jones said, Angela and her family plan to adopt the savior she named "Angel."

Animal control officers and shelter workers believe Angel is lost, and not a stray, because of his good health, sturdy weight and mild temperament.

"It's funny, that someone's irresponsibility could have saved someone's life," Jones said of Angel's possible owners.

For Angela, it doesn't matter where the dog came from, just that he was there when she needed him most.

"I don't know what his [the thief's] intentions were -- I don't know why he did it, but I'm glad that -- we call him Angel -- I'm glad that Angel showed up because I don't know what would have happened," Angela told NBC2 News.

For a small town with a population of 46,452, animal control officers were kept busy Monday afternoon. Jones says they department also responded to a report about a boa constrictor in a church parking lot.

The snake found its way into a car engine and was able to be removed without being harmed. It took three people to move the massive, seemingly random placed snake.

"It's funny, because we aren't a big place," he said of the Gulf Coast town. "And we can go for four or five months without the media contacting us about a story. It's been a busy week."

Officers from the responding county sheriff's office canvased the area and were unable to locate the suspect described as being in his 20s, tall and dark haired.

Tell us what you think about "Stray Dog Saves Woman, Child Held at Knifepoint" below. Share your favorite videos by clicking on the ZootooTV tab. Send us your story ideas by e-mailing us at news@zootoo.com or by calling us at 877-777-4204.

Pet Pulse reporter Amy Lieberman and NBC-2.com contributed to this article.

cheer

http://www.zootoo.com/petnews/straydogsaveswoma nchildheld atk
[notify]
Cain

Q.E.D., baby,- Q.E.D.!
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 11:10pm PST 
"I remeber Cain telling stories of the APBT that her 'hula breeder trained as a PPD. The one that broke someone's (was it a decoy, or an actual intruder? I forget...) arm."

Actually, Bajchi broke a real intruder's arm - a guy broke in, & was trying to sexually assault the dog owner's wife - when Bajchi nailed him - broke his arm & caused his arrest. Oh, and Bajchi is clearly a bitch - in more ways than one to the intruder. laugh out loud
Divine Dynasty's Bajchi
[notify]
Cain

Q.E.D., baby,- Q.E.D.!
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 11:18pm PST 
Yikes! A real Police K-9 Boxer.....

a police k9 boxer
[notify]
Cain

Q.E.D., baby,- Q.E.D.!
 
 
Barked: Fri May 28, '10 11:27pm PST 
working boxers - a BIT athletic....smile

another working boxer....
[notify]
  (Page 1 of 3: Viewing entries 1 to 10)  
Page Links: 1  2  3