GO!

Carolina dog or not? Not really a controversary!

This is a forum for bonding with your fellow Dogsters about the traits, quirks and idiosyncrasies of your favorite breed. Please remember that there are absolutely no animal sales or requests for studding or breeding allowed on our sites. All posts and interactions should be in the spirit of Dogster's Community Guidelines and should be fun, friendly and informational. Enjoy!

  
Kia

1060232
 
 
Barked: Tue Nov 3, '09 11:35pm PST 
Hi I am new here and I discoverd this site while researching the carolina dog. I got Kia from a rescue organization found in North Carolina. She was part of a feral pack That was captured by shelter workers responding to a call from a man who was shooting the feral dogs on his property. Kia recieved a shot to the back and was in bad shape. Most of the dogs that were captured were put down due to aggressive tendencies. Kia was not. Her disposition was good and she never showed the feral aggression that some of the other dogs did. The woman who fostered her before I got her tamed her down a bit and got her used to living inside the house. Once her butt hit the couch and she felt that comfort she never left! She is the sweetest most calm non-destructive clean dog! She has all the physical and behavioral traits of the "standard" Carolina dog (except for color but the color is just a recognition of a standard from breeders who are now going against the "natural" selection that created these dogs in the first place and are using selective breeding to create what they believe the dog should look like) I have no doubt my Kia is a carolina dog! She was born and raised from the natural selection of dogs surviving in the southern united states. That makes her more Carolina dog to me than any dog bought from a breeder( no offense meant to any one) I work with an adoption center who rescues dogs from high kill rate shelters in our southern states and I can tell you there are a lot of Carolina dogs in these shelters. we just adopted out an adult female and have a yonger Carolina dog up for adoption. There is still a small population of feral dogs as well. Most of these dogs are labled as Shepherd mixes. Chances are if you have a dog that closely resembles the defined traits of the Carolina dog and you got them from a shelter some where in the southern United States then what you have is a Carolina dog or at least a mix of one. Every one knows that their own dog is special. However when you own a Carolina dog, weather it is written on paper or just what you believe your dog to be, You will undoubtedly know your dog is unique and even more special than the average dog!
[notify]
Emily

"Begging works!- (with mom at- least)"
 
 
Barked: Mon Nov 16, '09 8:03pm PST 
Hi Kia, Emily's "mom" again. Well said! Emily is such a unique dog - I wish I could adopt each and every Carolina in those shelters. Thanks for the work you do for these dogs.-wendy
[notify]
Decker

1047112
 
 
Barked: Thu Mar 11, '10 12:03pm PST 
Any dog can be labeled a Carolina Dog. They are a generic pariah pCarolina Dogs are typical pariah morphotypic dogs of mixed ancestry. "Carolina Dogs" are a man-made breed created from several free-ranging dogs of unknown origin in the GA/SC area. There is very little evidence (genetic or otherwise) to connect them with the ancient aboriginal dogs of the SE US. The original testing performed in the late '90s ( I was working with Dr. Brisbin and others at the time) was, at best, inconclusive--showing that some Carolina Dogs tested could be grouped with other primitive dog breeds/types. But so can Chows, Huskies, German Shepherds and other domestic breeds that probably went into several strains of registered "purebred" Carolina dog bloodlines. All these breeds have been, at one time or other, extremely popular, with many of each breed most likely discarded or turned loose when they proved to be too much to handle. These strays (those who survived) would then be free to mix into the general stray/pariah/feral dog population of remote, rural areas.I know firsthand of registered Carolina Dogs with long coats and blue eyes--obvious evidence of possible recent husky/chow influence.

Carolina Dogs are basically populations of dogs of European (domestic) descent who have, over successive generations, and through the process of natural selection, reverted back to a primitive behavioral/morphological/ecologicaI phenotype. These dogs would be physically similar, or possibly identical to the aboriginal dogs present prior to European settlement (though not genetically related), due to both being created through the pressures of natural selection. The Carolina Dog would represent domestication in reverse. This would be a situation where a completely domesticated animal would have fled to the wilds/semiwilds of the rural SE US to evolve as a completely new type (breed) free of direct human intervention and/or supervision. Those domestic physical and behavioral traits not suited for survival in the wild would have been selected against and removed from the gene pool. This would represent a reemergence of the "original dog type" which first emerged over 12,000 years ago. Such pariah types exist all over the world and are by no means unique. Technically, a "Carolina Dog" would be a dog born from UKC/ARBA registered parents--a pedigreed dog or one allowed into the breeding program by Dr. Brisbin or his associates. In other words, the Carolina Dog "breed" was created from mixed pariah dog stock taken from the rural SE US and turned into a registered breed--just like the Canaan Dog, the Telomian, the Basenji, the Santal Hound, etc. in other parts of the world.henotype and many mixed breeds resemble them perfectly.
[notify]

Bronx

1125868
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 29, '10 7:41am PST 
that is not what Carolina dogs are...they were here before the Europeans came, and their DNA is different from typical domestic dogs.
[notify]
Kaia Blue

1155882
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 15, '11 5:00pm PST 
Hi, I would just like to share my dog Kaia with you. I thought it was interesting the similarity in the names. smile She is an amazing dog and I am so happy with her. I found her at a shelter in Asheville, North Carolina. She just turned 1 this week! Do you know anything about Carolina Dogs with blue eyes? Is this common or very rare? Any information would be helpful. Thanks!
[notify]
Decker

1047112
 
 
Barked: Thu Mar 31, '11 11:27am PST 
The breed currently registered with the UKC as the Carolina Dog is a domestic dog with the same DNA as any other domestic dog. There is NO conclusive evidence that these dogs existed prior to European settlement of the Southeastern US. As a lifelong resident of the region and someone who worked closely with the Carolina Dog Association and Dr. I. Lehr Bribin, founder of the breed, I can tell you with 100% confidence that Carolina Dogs are simply feral/pariah domestic dogs of mixed origins. The only DINGOES in the world are indigenous to southeast Asia, New Guinea and Australia--having been introduced to these regions about 5-6 thousand years ago by human settlers and traders. The primitive type dogs that arrived 15,000 years ago with the Native Americans were not dingoes in the true sense of the term, but were typical pariah-type dogs typical of most primitive societies today. If any Native American dogs actually survived the Indian removal programs of the 18th and 19th centuries here in the Southeast, they would have been quickly swamped genetically and overrun by European domestics--particularly the cur and feist breeds of early western European setters.
[notify]
Lily

Miss Lily, Lily- Belle
 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 3, '12 4:08am PST 
Decker, I'm no expert, but I have something to add.

I know my Lily's mother was a Lab, but I suspected she might be part Carolina Dog, also. She closely fits most of the physical standards, and exhibits many of the listed primal behaviors, as well; digging scent holes, being very vocal, etc.

Still, we're in Oklahoma, so it didn't make sense to me that a Carolina Dog would be here. I work for the Cherokee Nation, though, and one day it struck me that the Cherokee Nation was forcibly resettled here from North Georgia and the Carolinas. It made sense that they would have brought their dogs.

I took Lily to see a tribal historian. He confirmed that she was a "Spirit Dog", as Carolina Dogs are known in Cherokee history. He showed me many photographs and drawings from recent times back to art done on the Trail of Tears. He also showed me artwork depicting yellow Spirit Dogs that predate the arrival of the European Settlers.

Again, I'm no scientist, but in the 1970s, in Russia, they took wild foxes and practiced selective breeding, only allowing foxes that were friendly to humans to breed. Within a few generations, not only had the foxes developed many dog-like behaviors, they had also inexplicably developed wildly varied changes in coloration, curled tails, floppy ears, etc. When domesticted pigs go feral, within just a few generations, they become boar-like, with hair and tusks.

It stands to reason that the Carolina Dog might be a primal form, and that feral dogs might revert to it within a few generations of returning to the wild, but the Cherokee Nation takes their history very seriously. I believe what he showed me; and I believe Carolina Dogs were here before the European dogs. I'm sure they've interbred since, but I definitely think there were aboriginal dogs here before the Mayflower.

Maybe the Vikings left them behind. ; )
[notify]
Decker

1047112
 
 
Barked: Thu Apr 26, '12 9:58am PST 
Modern Carolina Dogs would look the same as the aboriginal dogs of the Southeastern US due to the same influences of environment upon morphology. There is no genetic evidence in modern Carolina Dogs to link them to the aboriginal dogs. Could there be some of that aboriginal remnant somewhere in modern CDs? Certainly. But the modern CD is by and far a breed of European ancestry--a "recreation" of sorts of the dogs kept by Amerindians.
[notify]
Lily

Miss Lily, Lily- Belle
 
 
Barked: Tue Sep 18, '12 3:41am PST 
So, the proliferation of these yellow dogs from the ancestral Cherokee homelands in The Carolinas and Georgia, all along The Trail of Tears, and here in the new homeland of the Cherokees in Oklahoma is just a coincidence?

Look, I don't care, either way. I adopted Lily because I fell in love with her at our first meeting, I couldn't care less what breed she is, but I can't help but notice the striking similarity she bears to the dingos at the exotic animal zoo I take my niece and nephew to, and how she exhibits so many primal behaviors that I've never seen before in a lifetime of being with dogs. According to the curator, by the way, those dingoes do the same things.

I've looked at the Carolina Dog websites, and much of what I've read appears to be written by scientists and academics who seem to be knowledgeable on the subject. I'd be curious to know where your information comes from, and why disproving those theories appears to be so important to you.
[notify]


Member Since
07/18/2013
 
 
Barked: Thu Jul 18, '13 12:57pm PST 
The folks who claim that the Carolina dogs are not descended from European dogs appear to be correct. Here's a link to a recent New York Times article about it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/science/a-dog-that-goes-way -back.html?ref=science&_r=0
[notify]