GO!

Anyone here see results with BAT ?

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 22, '13 5:19am PST 
*Wrings out shirt, punches Pavlov off shoulder* Ewwwwwwwww .... Thanks for that lovely image, Wat. laugh out loud
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Nare

Woo-woo- whineybutt
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 22, '13 7:15am PST 
Wait. Okay now I am confused LOL.

Who thinks R- is aversive?

If it is something that reinforces, then it isn't aversive at all.. For something to reinforce a behavior it has to create a positive association with the dog. The point of BAT is to reward your dog with functional rewards, which is either running away or towards the stimulus. thinking
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 22, '13 7:47am PST 
Nare, a lot of force free/clicker trainers only work in the R+ and P- quadrants because these are the only two that don't result in potential 'fallout'. I didn't know about it either 'til dogster slowed down and I hit some facebook groups. It's definitely a 'thing' now.

I work across all four quadrants. Have no issue with negative reinforcement whatsoever. Just mentioned it in case Charlie wanted to hire a trainer because BAT isn't as big as it once was due to that reason.
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 22, '13 7:58am PST 
In negative reinforcement R-, an aversive stimulus is removed. This is the scary doggie being removed. I can't for the life of me see how that is being inhumane, but there will always be fanatics who argue that any negative reinforcement is.

The dog is still getting a functional reward though.

Reinforcers, whether positive or negative, increase the likelihood of something happening. In this case, the original over-reactive dog not freaking out.
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Charlie

The world is my- food bowl!
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 22, '13 9:22am PST 
Thank you Nare, that explanation makes a lot of sense.
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 22, '13 9:58am PST 
Sometimes the quadrants just make my head swim! eeklaugh out loud

It does seem like at times which quadrant is in play could be open to interpretation by the beholder . . . How important is it to know what the quadrant is as long as the method is humane AND gets the behavior you want AND the dog is better emotionally balanced and not more stressed?

I wonder if the emotional breakdown is always so cut and dry for the subject being studied/trained, because after all these are human constructs . . . and then there's all the training we are getting from the dog too--and they didn't need to study the science behind what works!

I've been (almost) thoroughly conditioned to do belly rubs on demand! eek Gus finds that if she steps on my laptop often enough, she can get me to relent and agree that I spend too much time on the computer. laugh out loud Like, "I'm the only laptop you need . ."

But at any rate, Polly is dog reactive on leash--there may be some fear, but it mostly seems like frustration at not being able to get to the dog--she even gets excited when she smells that a dog has just passed the way we are going--I swear she seems to be smelling their foot prints by the way she tracks the sidewalk!

We've been counter conditioning with treats, but maybe I need to look more into BAT because I've noticed that treating also has the unwanted side effect at making her snappish when my friends' dogs get close to me--like "back off, buddy, this is MY personal treat dispenser!" (though she totally accepts Gus being allowed to be treated) . . .

(side note: What quadrant is the dog using when he/she pushes their head under your hand until you comply and scratch their ears? And what quadrant are they using when they just present themselves belly up and wag their tail at you?)
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Cohen CD RE- ADC SGDC- FDCh CGN

The Monster
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 22, '13 10:31am PST 
Remember, classical conditioning should really only be primarily relied upon until you manage to get the dog operant. At that point, switch to a combination of classical conditioning and operant conditioning. CC is a relatively short lived tactic that requires periodic booster sessions to keep the association strong. OC tends to be longer lasting since the dog is an active participant in the process. I think BAT hovers in between CC and OC.
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 22, '13 11:32pm PST 
If we take Skinner's view and suppose every behaviour in the world falls into a quadrant, then Gus pushing her head into your hand would be either R or R- It depends on how YOU feel. The dog is reinforcing your action .... either adding a stimulus which you like and makes you want to pet, or the message is, if you don't do what I want, I'll keep applying this pressure ...

I think, anyway.

Belly rubs? Erm, same again ... Although sounds more like mindless classical conditioning to me. laugh out loud See belly, must pet ... I think all our dogs condition us for that.

Some people may sit there and try to dice up their day into the quads of OC, but I couldn't be stuffed! It makes my head kinda swim too.

Edited by author Mon Jul 22, '13 11:43pm PST

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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Tue Jul 23, '13 1:14pm PST 
Cohen that's a good point. I tend to think it begins as Classical Conditioning and morphs into Operant.

But that's neither here nor there if it works. I don't have the opportunity to use it in my situation, but I've heard of successes with it.

I just use the good old "work at obedience pattern," or "Look at me," depending on the dog. The LAM (look at me) has gotten my one dog down from 8 feet to 2. AND, he is NEVER the instigator.

As far as getting too hung up on the quadrants -- after all I'm not a chicken or a dolphin trainer, just a dog owner, my least favorite saying is: "while Pavlov may always be on Skinner's shoulder, Skinner is not always on Pavlov's."

Edited by author Tue Jul 23, '13 1:16pm PST

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