GO!

Cesar Without the Drama....Like for REAL, lol!

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 29, '13 1:44pm PST 
Interesting . . .. I guess one must have a group of stable dogs for this to work and dogs that already know each other? Which is exactly the opposite of what goes on at dog parks where I've seen people bring dogs for socialization who clearly are on edge about being around other dogs.

I remember one lady I have seen twice in the last year who "dominance downed" her dog--made it lay on it's side for getting snarky and snappy with dogs who came near her. This same dog was also not happy with dogs who ran too much (play police. At any rate the enforced laying on the side sure didn't do anything for the dog's comfort around dogs when I saw her six months later . . . she was still just as unhappy with other dogs. shrug

But I'm curious--she got the dog at 3 months--not exactly sure on the timeline how old he was when she moved in with her parents--AND the rat terriers were already there . . .. maybe they have a lot to do with his fear aggression--like they got him wound up? And will they again after he goes back into an environment with only them? In other words could his confidence regress?


Interestingly Turid Rugaas in her book "On Talking Terms: Calming Signals" spends some time talking about how her dogs who are very stable and have excellent calming signals with nervous and aggressive dogs are very helpful. She mentions an incident where she was out and two strange off leash dogs came roaring at her dog, barking fiercely. Her dog turned her back to them and sat down . . ..

"Saga's action immediately took the energy out of the strange dogs. They slowed down, stopped barking and started to sniff the ground. They actually never went all the way up to Saga. They stopped at a distance and stood still, quietly sniffing the ground." A dog dog whisperer? wink

I don't know if that would work in every case, but when you think about it, that does take quite an unflappable temperament to be unfazed under the circumstances.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Mon Apr 29, '13 3:19pm PST 
It's possible....the mix may not be right, maybe the Rats prefer their own happy little twosome. The dog was under confident. Sometimes, though, when dogs turn teenagers, it's like they've crossed over into some other galaxy, and any deficiencies in their socialization really come into play when it matches with their now raging hormones, which at that life stage is where things can come to a bit of a head. Feeling more adult, but at the same time not on par with the adults. Bold inclinations for testing where they fit paired with some insecurity for not yet quite knowing that answer. It can do everything from spiking shut down fear, reactive fear, or even being brutish.

Tiller throws no calming signals or submissive language ever. Everything about his posture is sort of dominant, and when fosters first come in 80% of the time they feel a bit funky towards him, but after a day they totally gravitate, presumably because he's very stable and together, and I do think they may feel some solace in him as a strong arm. So I do think in terms of a particularly reassuring dog, that's good. Or through my experience, I think dogs who build trust in perhaps other varied fashions that the dog can express emotionally and nothing will come of it builds a trust. I have a particularly interesting view for, as I said, his basic language is pretty intimidating and he sets dogs off, but in being made nervous by it and yet Tiller does not reciprocate, more or less eye rolling at their insecurity, within a day they are all over him like their big shadow.

I think a big point is what is the feedback when they present such insecurity. If it is somewhere along the lines of "yo dude, we're chill here," which can come from anywhere such as the supportive calming signals of one dog or the unflappably steady manner of another, it still gives the dog a chance to express, start to feel secure, and then seeking a connection as a matter of concluding the conflict.

I don't know if you saw the video Nare put up (I put up a more direct linky) but that black dog was very fearful, and obviously thrived getting to make his progress on his own decisions and at his own pace. He had a porch to retreat to, and also helpers who would herd dogs away when the black dog was starting to look uncomfortable. The dogs there were all stable, but the handlers were actually giving an extra assist where if his language was saying it was a bit much (the other dogs in his space, no matter how amenably), they'd allow his communications a little more control by encouraging more distance from the others, and then it sorted.

I know this sounds corny, but I think feeling "heard" or feeling the liberty to "express" can be very empowering to dogs.

Edited by author Mon Apr 29, '13 3:21pm PST

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Pepper

Got food? I- can be bought ya- know....
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 30, '13 8:07am PST 
Hmmm. From the first look at Drake around another dog, I heard and saw an anxious, excited dog. He looked like he wanted to get near the other dog - not to attack or kill - just excited. Unfortunately, that level of excitement in an anxious, uncontrolled dog often leads to aggression. Drakes uncontrolled, rude, anxious approach would not be well received.
He quickly escalates, again, fear and lack of self control.

We don't know how old he was when introduced to the Rat Terriers, nor do we know what body language/signals the terriers gave Drake. For all we know the Rat Terriers gave him a clear signal that he was not welcome and would be eliminated ASAP.

I am amazed at how quickly dogs signal to each other. It's easy to miss, especially for a novice human. I very often see the challenge from dog A before dog B attacks it.

If you are familiar with Turid's book, she writes about dogs having lost the ability to understand the signals and how to teach them to recover the ability.
CM uses "Flooding" and we see it used here in a controlled way to rehabilitate Drake.
Drake was given the chance to find his "dog social skills" again.
Love it! Glad for the pupper.
smile
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Missy

Miss- Pig!
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 30, '13 8:29am PST 
Well, like i said, i'm sure i saw one of the terriers raise it's lip at Drake at the end. Warning to stay away or maybe even the instigators?

But i'm glad i wasn't the only one to not see an aggressive dog, just a frustrated/anxious dog. If this was considered serious and a true case of DA i hate to imagine what Missy would be classified as....
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Skarlet

1231853
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 30, '13 12:55pm PST 
This is really interesting. I love how they have a group of well mannered dogs to start with, I feel like those are rare. I find many dogs that are "good with other dogs" are ridiculously friendly and don't listen to a dog's 'back off' signals like these did. It's right in my area too! I might find out more about him...
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 30, '13 3:02pm PST 
DA can be a lot of things. My childhood dog was more or less a killer....he was extremely dangerous, knew of him immense power, and had little tolerance for most dogs.....but he was highly trained, in control and had strong nerves, so things were well under wraps in terms of his dog fighting incidents. A fearful dog, or even a spazzy one lacking in social skill who flips out at the sight of another dog, on the other hand, may be involved in a huge number of fights and be an extreme social liability.

Pepper talked about quick messaging between dogs and that was true of Hatteras...many things diffused with just a look, "tick me off, and you are dead." Around a territorial or SSA dog, though, and I may as well have been walking a lion. My next door neighbor had just such a dog, and in Manhattan that meant neighboring apartments. We had a pretty good protocol for avoiding each other to ensure neither was out in lobby waiting for the elevator, but the few times that failed it was hold on for dear life, for that is a fight that would have gone to the death.

So that's dog aggression also, but it's less of a social risk than some leash reactive types, who are being very arousing while at the same time showing their agitation, which can spike other dogs and then of course there you are with a dog you had no control over in the first place.

NARE'S VIDEO I will put up again, as I am not sure how many have seen this one. Very fearful, socially confused dog, whose coping mechanism when he feels cornered is to snap. This is ten days work, and when put around very stable dogs, they are reading all that body language and aren't really caring about the snap. It's not really aggressive, but rather an extreme communication from a socially inept and panicked dog. That may set less stable dogs off, and then of course there's a bad scene. I think here, the lack of reaction from them gives him chance for some confidence. Also in that the handlers out there were careful to not allow the loose, stable dogs to put more pressure on than he was ready for. But it's a very nice turnaround in ten days, where he has just let go of all his confusion and mistrust and is starting to be a dog, initiating and seeking that social contact with a sense of interest and trust in his world, versus the emotional mess he was to start with.
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Iris vom- Zauberberg

Service Werewolf
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 30, '13 3:50pm PST 
It was beautiful to see the dog ease into confident body language over the days until he was just a relaxed member of the pack.
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Gunther

Giant Shih Tzu
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 30, '13 5:34pm PST 
I know what you're saying, Tiller. My Lab/Chow mix growing up was a killer. He had killed three different dogs that entered our property, and had won numerous fights with dogs twice his size. But on walks? He was calm and controlled, and only would have attacked another dog had it threatened us. I think a confident dog is at times less of a liability in public than a fearful one - but of course, there are always exceptions. Basically Louie understood the idea of territory and what belonging to him. He was ready to defend what was his, but could care less about what wasn't.

On the other hand, before I did a lot of extensive conditioning with my HIGHLY fear aggressive GSD, Riku, she was a nightmare on walks. Would lunge and snap at any dog that came near her, and acted like a general maniac. While the Chow mix was the one that had actually killed other dogs, I was more nervous about Riku's behavior in public than his. She was terrified and in a constant state of defending herself. Thankfully, she overcame those issues with positive reinforcement, but my gosh was it a long haul...

Edited by author Tue Apr 30, '13 5:39pm PST

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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Wed May 1, '13 5:23am PST 
This also made me think of Turid and her lovely little Vallhund, Saga. Sometimes the best 'behaviorist' for a dog is another dog!

Pack dynamics have always been of great interest to me, as many dogs run loose around here and I have consistently watched the same groups of dogs come together and form packs. There is amazing functionality in these groups. Interesting to see the natural leaders come to the fore and keep the others in line, too.
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