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Neuter now or wait.

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Moose

I love sitting- in laps
 
 
Barked: Sat Mar 16, '13 11:52am PST 
First off, let me apologize for re re hashing this subject, but with a new behavior, I'd like opinions.

I take Moose to off leash trails on weekend mornings. (taking Mulders advice and just focusing on me and him) He stays on his long line and when a dog approaches I ask the owner if their dog is a puppy. If it's "yes", then Moose gets reeled in and we move on. If not, then he can say hi. It's working ok.
On week nights after work, we go to a trail that is not an off leash trail, but most people don't follow that rule which is no big deal. I just treat it as I do the other trail.

This morning Moose got to say hi to lots of dogs and one in particular set off his bullying move even though it was a 5 yr old.
He was saying hi to a Golden and the Goldens "brother", a 5 yr old Bassett came enthusiastically running up, but put on the brakes when he got near Moose.
The Bassett tried to sniff Moose and Moose went to sniff him, but then I saw his bullying body language kick in. He got right over him, started to put his chin over the dogs neck and start to pin him. But no growling had started.
I quickly pulled him back before anyone noticed anything.
I'm obviously not happy about this.

My question ( and jumping the gun possibly) is, if this now becomes an issue with random males, would neutering now be a good idea? Or is this too just an adolescent thing that he may outgrow?
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Chewy

Tall,Dark, and,- Handsome
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 18, '13 12:50pm PST 
I'll bump this up for you Moose.

I've read some of your past posts about him bullying puppies as well. How do the attitudes of the other dogs seem that he's targeting? Are they all similar, or does it not matter?

Could it possibly have anything to do with the size of the dogs? Bassets are short, and I'm figuring Moose is a lot bigger than most of the puppies he encounters that he tends to target. Maybe he's more confident with shorter or smaller dogs to try and test his strength and bully around?

I don't really have much experience with your situation and I don't know if neutering will help. It could get worse as he matures and gains more confidence in himself, but it could go away. Let's see what others with more experience think.

Good luck with him.


Also how big is the Moose now? smile

Edited by author Mon Mar 18, '13 12:53pm PST

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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 18, '13 2:59pm PST 
Frankly, this is something we see happen lots with maturing daycare clients. And, MOST of them are already neutered!!! It happens just about this age, and we end up having to play crate and rotate often, but...the good news, most of them outgrow it!!!
I don't think neutering is gonna help at all, IMO. This is part of growing up but doesn't seem linked to testerone. I would be more worried about health issues from neutering TOO soon with a Saint.
Just keep your eyes open, pull him back when needed and when his mind grows up he should be fine.
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Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 18, '13 4:51pm PST 
I'm a big fan of neutering. It seems to help, not just with humping but with general relationships between males- there is less competitiveness and more friendly play. Also generally it's an easier surgery and has more behavioral effect when the dog is young. Intact males, even friendly ones, tend to notice that other males are responding to them badly and internalize that.
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Opheila

It ain't over- till the fat- kitty sings
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 18, '13 5:06pm PST 
I'm just repeating what I've read and observed, that neuturing can have a positive effect on behavior and personality. Testosterone is what it is. Certainly any dogs can show dominant bahavior or fight, but the nastiest battles we've witnessed have been between unaltered males.
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Ava & Nix

Suburban Farm- Dogs
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 18, '13 8:01pm PST 
I've read your posts about Moose's bullying before, but somehow never made the connection until now. Nix is doing the very same thing. And I believe they're close to the same age? Anyways, I've been off and on considering neutering (most likely not going to unless there's a medical reason to, but I can't say I've never thought about it) but when this bullying behavior started up, my first instinct was to leave his sex hormones alone until he's well past the "angsty hormonal teenager" stage.

Right now the hormones are running wild, testosterone levels are as high as they will ever be (on the plus side, it's only going to drop from here), he's starting to flex his muscles and see what he can get away with. I also read, from another distressed BC owner who's intact male was also going through the very same behaviors, that during this age-range dogs are at their most insecure.

Since neutering takes away all the important hormones needed for development, I feel like doing so at the age where they're already going wild would be too big a risk, and might throw things way, way out of whack, creating a dog who's even more insecure and/or an even bigger bully. Despite how you hear all the time that intact males are the aggressive ones, we've had more issues with neutered males becoming aggressive to him. I gotta wonder if these boys were neutered too young and that's why they immediately react aggressively to meeting an intact male. We've yet to have an issue with another intact male. Not saying it won't ever happen, but it hasn't yet.

Anyways, I would wait until Moose is older and out of the hormonal stage.

Edited by author Mon Mar 18, '13 8:18pm PST

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Jake & Sweet- Caroline

Tricolored- Hounds for life!
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 18, '13 9:01pm PST 
I don't know how helpful this comment will but but at worst it will be a bump.

I've seen plenty of neutered dogs bully other dogs that are usually shorter or smaller then they are. A Saint pair that used to frequent the dog park i went to were known for it.

We used to call them Cujo and Cuja. They were super friendly with people but if your dog was smaller then theres they got it. Not in a mean vicious way but they would often put down other dogs smaller then them. Age didn't matter and Brad was fixed and Macy was Spayed. That was just how they were.

I wouldn't neuter your dog unless you have a serious aggression issue or something like insane amount of humping or some medical reason.

I probably would have never fixed jake had i found him as a stay but I can vouch for the whole calming down after the balls are gone thing. But leave'em if it's just a growing pains thing.

good luck..
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Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 18, '13 9:11pm PST 
Nix, neutering doesn't just improve the behavior of the male in question- it also makes him smell less threatening to intact and altered males alike. Waiting until puberty is over can allow a lot of practice of bad behaviors, like humping, and also a lot of negative experiences with other males, the aftermath of which may last a lifetime. There is no evidence to support that neutering causes aggression.
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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 18, '13 9:24pm PST 
Smokey... you realize humping happens for far more reasons than just being intact, right? Because I see just as many neutered dogs doing it.

Quite frankly, Charlie is intact and has never had an issue. He's only ever had an issue with my mother's dog, but that's because Grizz is a giant, matured, intact puppy who intimidates him and plays too rough to begin with. It's more that Charlie won't put up with him anymore. Dog parks, you name it, he's NEVER had an issue with another dog because it was neutered or intact, and vice versa. No dogs have ever targeted him either. I also haven't found it to reduce smell.

Bad behavior, imo, has more to do with individual personalities/genetics and training than anything. Charlie doesn't hump, doesn't mark, doesn't show signs of aggression, nadda. And I haven't had any issues with any other intact dogs either..

I keep seeing people blaming being intact or not for bad behaviors... Yet, don't find it comes down to that at all because I see all these bad behaviors in intact AND neutered. Using that alone as a reason to neuter isn't.. really ideal imo.

I'd rather consider everything from behavior through to health and then some.

I have to agree with Toto.
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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Tue Mar 19, '13 12:58am PST 
Smokey my 10 year old intact male GSD from working, import lines is the most laid back easy-going dog I know with other dogs and the only dog I currently have who humps anything is my spayed female. As far as dog aggression or bullying, again my spayed female would be the most likely culprit. Most of the neutered males I know are unpleasant around other dogs regardless of gender and this seems doubly true if done early.
I agree with Toto, I would guess teenage moronic stage and very likely he will just grow out of it. Bud was a jerk as teenager to, now he's just a big dummylaugh out loud
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