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Clicker training question

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Baby

What'd you say?- I wasn't- listening.		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 8:57am PST 
I've now seen this a couple times. A trainer I work with does it all the time and so her clients do it now too and I've seen someone showing off their cute puppy on youtube do it.

They're clicking but not rewarding til the very end of a series of tricks. They click to indicate the dog did it right but no reward, so at the end of every trick "click" then follow through with another command "click" again, again, etc. Then they finally treat after the whole routine.

I was under the impression you always had to reward right after the click otherwise it ruins the effect?
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 10:05am PST 
There are never any "have to"'s, but if you don't, you run the risk of weakening the conditioned reinforcer.
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Lobo

"Stubborn" dogs- don't need- corrections		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 10:38am PST 
I remember on tumblr, someone said something about that, too. How you don't have to reward after every click.

Personally, I can see how it would definitely decrease the meaning of the click. But I can also see how people can still successfully do a routine, clicking without treating. I, however, choose to treat-reward Lobo after every click. "Yes" (my verbal mark) is what I use when he's getting another reward(like a toy-reward or an environmental reward).
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Zephyr

1213425		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 10:56am PST 
It's about spacing out rewards, really. It's "You're still doing the right thing, keep trying and we'll have a big party at the end". It doesn't lessen anything if you've done it correctly since the dog should know by that point what a click means. You can't take food everywhere so sometimes a "Good" or a "Yes" will have to do especially if you're competing.

Plus with some dogs withholding the reward will have them working harder and with more intensity. They really want that big reward so you're conditioning them to work very very hard the whole time. It's a good drive builder with some including one of my own.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 11:09am PST 
The response to a click is not on operant response, it is a classically conditioned response. Clicking without treating afterwards would effectively be counter conditioning (the click is no longer the predictor of food ALL the time, the reflexive responses to the click change).
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Member Since
11/30/2012		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 11:20am PST 
That is incorrect. Each click must be followed with a reward, generally speaking a primary reinforcer, i.e., food. If the dog has been trained to do a chain of behaviors, one behavior linked to the next then you can click at the end of the chain and reward, but it is not correct to click each behavior and reward at the end of a series. Further, it is not necessary or appropriate to use a clicker after the dog has learned the behavior.

Cindy Ludwig, M.A., KPA-CTP
Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner
(Certified clicker trainer)
Canine Connection LLC
Dubuque, Iowa
Website: www.dubuquedogtraining.com
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Zephyr

1213425		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 11:28am PST 
It may not be technically correct but it works to get more out of some dogs. I get why it's being done.

Granted I won't use a clicker since it's just one more thing to lose and my voice works just as well if not better.
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Cohen CD RE- ADC FDCh-S- CGN HIC

The Monster		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 12:08pm PST 
Yeah, when I use a clicker on a string of behaviours without rewarding I know I'm being lazy (but I'll do it from time to time anyways). But I would say that a clicker is likely unnecessary if you're working on a string of already-known behaviours. Remember that it's a precision tool to facilitate learning more than anything else.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 12:42pm PST 
The really lovely thing is that if you are a TRUE clicker trainer, the cues themselves become tertiary reinforcers and you can use cues to reinforce each behavior in a chain till you get to the end where the click comes. Of course, if you add aversives, you shut down the ability to use the cue as a reinforcer (Karen Pryor talks about this in her book, Reaching the Animal Mind). The cue will no longer activate the seeking circuit, so becomes "poisoned". I realize there are a lot of people out there that believe a poisoned cue is one to which the dog reacts negatively, but it is not. it is simply a cue that no longer does activate the seeking circuit.

And there are lots of trainers who use clickers out there. That does not mean they all are clicker trainers.
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Zephyr

1213425		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 22, '13 1:02pm PST 


In retrospect I do tend to use "Good" instead of "Yes" with my dogs when they need to be told to keep going but they've done the right thing. "Yes" is my usual mark for new behavior. One of these days I'll film myself and figure out the nuances to what I do so I can write a book on what not to do but somehow muddle through. laugh out loud

Edited by moderator Tue Jan 22, '13 5:36pm PST

Edited by forums moderator
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