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Ceaser or Victoria?

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty		 
 
Barked: Sun Jan 13, '13 11:00pm PST 
Wow, Guest....I think it's really good you train your dogs as you do because your interpretation of corrections is really screwy.

As in "Do it or else" shrug I suppose that's a part of any training, though. Do it or else you won't get this cookie or that click just as well. How on earth do you sleep at night big laugh Of course that's just me in jest, but perhaps not too funny as Sea World has had a couple of orcas just pop and kill their trainers. It's not as if there is no stress involved. Depends on the dog. Some have a nice even energy. Others, you see these dogs and where the owner views them as happy, to outside eyes they look anywhere from anxious to neurotic.

Proofing with corrections doesn't have to mean any sort of brutality. You may give a dog a check when he is in too intense a stimuli and starting to tune you out, and as he responds treat or praise him. I also instruct my teenage dog people it's like saying "yo! remember me? sure ya do" laugh out loud Some people just don't get corrections. They were poorly schooled, didn't connect with it, brought too much emotion/frustration to the table, or it simply wasn't for them. Which is fine. But done right, corrections are schooling which teach a dog to be better composed in demanding scenarios. That's just foundational to a moment you don't expect and you call out your dog's name or a command and he's been there, done that. I need to work a dog a little over his top before I can trust him openly in situations I can't predict. That's life. With some dogs, it will never be a big deal. With others, particularly territorial or prey driven, it can be a huge one.

That's a lot like the whole Charlie the Pit Bull scenario in San Fran. Ok, so he'd never seen a horse before and (I will extend the benefit of the doubt) had never showcased such an extreme prey drive before, but he had absolutely no foundation in that frame when his owner called his name. Just disconnected. The bond was dead in that moment.

Some people believe bond isn't all sugar plums and marshmallows, but a combination of benefits and consequences. I dunno, maybe this is personal issues and experiences coming out. For those who see wrong, see hate, see anger in discipline. Maybe that's the root of the odd karma statement. If you aren't in love when you are disciplining, then I get that. But a dog who is guided to have the most encumbered, field romping life he can have? Bad karma due? I see that as a terrible misuse of a spiritual principle to suit one's argument....a bit of an irony, that.

I doubt anyone here is into using pronounced force or is inattentive to body language. These things matter to us all muchly.

Edited by author Wed Jan 23, '13 5:01pm PST

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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 14, '13 3:58am PST 
I agree with pooch. I prefer neither, but Victoria STilwell is closer to my training philosophy.

I also see no need to employ dominance in training. My dogs are my partners.

And yes, I am one of those who tries to avoid the word "no" in training situations. I prefer a positively conditioned interupter.

Sassy, you say you have a dog that ignores you. Have you tried classically conditioning your dog's name? Have you taught a focus cue? And have you tried clicker training?

I agree with you.I have yet to come across a dog that NEEDS corrections. If my dog is not complying with a cue, even a well known cue, I step back and evaluate MY training program. The onus always falls back on me, never on my dog. If my dog blows me off, there is a flaw in my training. Maybe the environment is more rewarding than I am (and let's face facts, chasing cats can be MUCH more fun than looking at a human), maybe it is too distracting (I certainly could not perform some skills I have learned, like doing my taxes, in the middle of a party), maybe the dog has not generalized the cue, so many possibilities.

Either way, if my dog prefers to blow me off to do something else, well, then I need to work on my relationship with my dog. I never want a dog that obeys to avoid, I always want a dog that complies to gain.
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Noah

Herpaderp-apotam- us		 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 14, '13 7:17am PST 
I will say that I prefer Ceaser but I like Victoria's training methods much better. As a person, she just really annoys me. Maybe it's the way she's presented on tv, I can't quite put my finger on it but I just don't like her. As far as training methods, I believe very strongly in positive reinforcement but I dislike how Victoria always insists that tools like a prong collar/remote collar is never an acceptable tool to use on a dog. Most pet dog owners will not need to use them, but there are times when they are the best thing to use. I dislike trainers who take a strictly black and white approach, whether it's towards positive punishment or towards positive reinforcement. I love Ceaser's emphasis on exercise and the owner remaining calm and mindful when working with a dog but I agree with everyone who says that alpha rolling/dominance isn't really the way to train. I don't really see him as a "trainer" so I feel like it's a bit tricky to compare the two.

I think if you want to teach your dog to do things, listen to Victoria. If you want some good tips on how to interact and live with your dog, listen to Cesear. Don't take either one as gospel.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty		 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 14, '13 2:36pm PST 
Loved that post, Noah!
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Clyde

Ice cubes? YES- PLEASE!		 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 14, '13 8:48pm PST 
I prefer Victoria's methods by far, BUT...

I've tried hard to go all-positive. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough, but it didn't work. However, Clyde and I have a much stronger bond than before. Most interactions, especially during training, need to be positive, but sometimes, the dog just won't get it if I don't issue a few NO's with praise ensuing after he responds appropriately. Sometimes, especially with Clyde, the dog is just being a pain-in-the-butt just because he can. And he gets lots of corrections and a few time-outs because we both know he knows how to do a bunch of things and has done them 100% of the time until now. I tell him to sit before breakfast like I do every day and he gives me the "Hah, yeah right" look and off to time-out he goes... wave

Still, most of my interactions with Clyde end up in praises and the occasional goody. In fact, after abandoning dominance-based methods, he started "following" me on walks, desiring to know what I want, telling me what he wants, and has became sensitized to corrections and the rarely-used prong collar to the point where it's pretty rare for me to even use either.

So I use a little of both.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 6:00am PST 
Clyde, there is no such thing as "All Positive". It is a myth, a meme circulated by those who don't understand what force free training is.

And I would not call VS force free either, especially in those earlier episodes (and she has admitted she did not have as much control over the show then as she would have liked).
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 7:48am PST 
Koda, I wanted to add this for you:

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/how-do-i-train-my-dog-to-s top-chasing-the-chickens-cat-rat
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Gunther

Giant Shih Tzu		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 8:04am PST 
Definitely no such thing as "all positive". I can't help it, sometimes when Gunther starts barking out of the blue I go , "SHUT UP YOU NERD!!" He keeps barking, but I'm sure it's not very positive being called a nerd. laugh out loud

In seriousness though, I use a clicker, treats, and correct with negative punishment (i.e. taking things away or removing him from the room).
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town		 
 
Barked: Tue Jan 15, '13 7:11pm PST 
I believe Asher is talking about the 'stresses' of clicker training, not slipping up and verbally correcting your dog. That the dog has to strain his brain to get that little treat, or withstand the disappointment of a NRM, and that's where the stress comes in - QED, it cannot be all chamomile tea and almond fancies, no matter how hard someone tries, if you look at it from a strictly scientific point. Because the dog must withstand and learn to deal with that stress, and problem solving can be mightily stressful. Amirite?

I have also been informed if you slip up and verbally correct your dog, you are a trainer that uses a clicker, not a clicker trainer. No really, I have.

Distinctions, baby.

Edited by author Tue Jan 15, '13 7:18pm PST

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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 4:00am PST 
Close. Learning IS stressful. Always. But there is a difference between eustress and distress.

I don't use NRM's, at least I try hard not to do so. I am human and make mistakes.

Instead, I use P-.

Naybe I am building distance in a sit and am bumping from 9 to 10 feet.

"Sit".

Dog does not comply.

Immediate response from me is that the dog does not earn a click/treat. P-.

I reset and repeat.

If the dog does not comply more than once I make it easier (so if I was asking for a sit from a down from 10 feet away and the dog could not comply even though he/she should, IMHO, have the skills to do so, I may take a step closer to make it easier).

Long term response from me is I would go back to my training program and try to figure out where things broke down (was the environment too distracting, did I build distance too quickly, could we have been facing a different direction, did my cues look different, could my dog see and hear my cues, was my dog tired/over excited/etc).

Short term response is P- (or possibly extinction if the dog would go to a position for which I did not ask). Long term is I evaluate my training plan.

I found this with Demon lately. I have been working on fading his cue to get in heel from front from a (rather large) hand signal to a small tilt of my head. When he does those nice back ups into heel I jackpot. When he goes to heel with a small signal from me, I jackpot. Get in Heel has become a very fun behavior for him. But his recalls into front have deteriorated. He recalls into a crooked front or recalls right into heel. Whose fault? Mine. I made get in heel more fun than front. SO now I need to go back and clean that up. I don't need to correct his mistakes, I just don't reward get in heels unless they are proceeded by a nice front. I don't need an NRM either. The lack of a click/treat is all the information he needs P-. Not all positive. Not even all reinforcement. But that is the nature of clicker training.
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