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Dog to Dog Corrections

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Member Since
12/31/1969
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 10:41am PST 
if somebody knows 'so many' dogs which have received normal corrections from other dogs (like for trying to steal food) and somehow ended up with what is implied to be aggression issues, i would seriously examine the stock from which these dogs come from, if they are dogs with good, stable genetics behind them.

There is no reason why within their OWN species, any social animal cannot communicate appropriately and instead only overwhelmingly cause behavioral issues.

it's almost like saying dogs are incapable of rearing their young largely on their own. which in many areas of the world, where working dogs aren't kept as optional novelty house pets, they ARE largely left to rear and teach their young, and it would be strange to say that those situations mostly devolve into somehow aberrant groups of dogs incapable of getting along with each other.

Edited by author Wed Jan 16, '13 10:54am PST

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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 10:56am PST 
Actually, as a trainer and behavior consultant, I get a LOT of dogs with a huge variety of issues. It is my job (although that was a friend, most of my students are able to work through their issues with the correct guidance, and if I can't help them, I can always kick it up to the boss).

So while my veiw point may be skewed, I see the worst that happens because of letting these things play themselves out Most people who have let these things happen but DON'T have issues don't sign up for private lessons. wave
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Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 11:05am PST 
Trixie, that was an explanation of my goal- to have my dog ultimately be as bombproof as he can, and why I believe letting dogs hash it out is ultimately misinformed and undermines healthy socialization instead of encouraging it. I wouldn't let my dog be pestered for the reasons I explained, but that doesn't mean I'm accusing anyone of cruelty.
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Titus

Cave canis- vigilo omnis
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 11:06am PST 
Goodness, so much hyperbole! laugh out loudlaugh out loud

It's ridiculous to assume that dogs are incapable of fairly delivering and receiving corrections without some sort of psychic damage. Honestly, the more we humans interfere in what could/should/is meant to be normal canine interaction, the more anti-social, "reactive" dogs I see.
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G2

Be Scaredy of- Me, Dawg!
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 11:17am PST 
"It's ridiculous to assume that dogs are incapable of fairly delivering and receiving corrections without some sort of psychic damage. Honestly, the more we humans interfere in what could/should/is meant to be normal canine interaction, the more anti-social, "reactive" dogs I see."

applauseapplauseapplause
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Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 11:35am PST 
It's a more severe illustration of the same concept. The point I am trying to make is to pay attention to what conditioned associations your dog is learning. When your dog experiences a situation that makes him moderately uncomfortable and then has something happen that he likes (the puppy leaves me alone so I can chew) he is going to be more comfortable in that same situation over time, and probably even tolerate more before getting irritated. That's what a conditioned positive association does. If he experiences a situation that is moderately uncomfortable, then it escalates to more uncomfortable when the puppy continues to pester him, he snaps, the puppy still doesn't listen, or his bone is taken away, he learns that moderate discomfort predicts more discomfort rather than relief. Do many animals work it out just fine between themselves? Yup. Plenty of animals have really good temperaments and can handle a lot of stress and irritation. Do I think it's wise to take the risk? Nope. I'd just as soon have the puppy learn that ignoring a growl predicts a time out, while respecting it and backing off means he gets to stay out. The closer together behavior and consequence are, the better the puppy understands the association. I ignore a growl, then I get put in time out is really straightforward. I ignore a growl, then I get to stay out and play, then I get growled at again, then I sniff the floor, then I jump on the other dog and finally get snapped at is a lot less clear. And of course puppies vary. For some, having a dog thrust his neck out in an irritated manner is enough to send them flying across the room. For others, snapping is a little startling but maybe ultimately just an invitation to nip and play rough. While intervening too soon or in the wrong way interferes with socialization, intervening with a full understanding of what associations the dog is learning creates a dog who is better socialized than he would otherwise be.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 11:42am PST 
I agree with the not a great example re guest. That could easily have been (and does sound like) the younger pup coming of age. Which can happen with certain breeds and mixes. DA, SSA and dominant aggression don't surface until that older age. Or, just a good example although sex specific, a lot of times people have females who go three or four years in pure bliss, and then all of a sudden the home erupts into flat out war. Usually that is because the older female shows one chink in her armor, and then it is war. That's actually why the Boxer rescue I worked for ceased adopting females into female homes as a hard rule, due to all the times females headed back...sometimes six months in, sometimes three or four years in. But it happened way too much, always with the scenario that everything was smooth as silk and then all of a sudden it went not to simply scraps, but war.

I can also muse that with repeated, ongoing corrections, the puppy obviously wasn't listening, so there was trouble in paradise for a while...not just a single incident. You don't know, perhaps the play was tough and the corrections often because the other dog knew this other dog was a threat in the making. Certainly, I'd have been attentive to that. This isn't about putting your head in the sand, but rather that dogs have a right to be dogs, part of which is correcting behavior, which is completely normal and healthy done right. Some dogs lack balance and need extra guardianship....but corrections from a well balanced dog are normal and affirming.

I still see this totally as a split between those who involve themselves with rehomed dogs with pasts and fear issues, and those who raise breeder puppies. You see those splits in training styles also. Who gets drawn to/swears by what.

I don't see coming in to save the day as fostering confidence, which is, after all, defined as "faith in oneself," but rather affirming safety and a reliance on the owner. I think that can certainly bolster comfort levels in an insecure dog, but if you want to raise a well adapted adult with some sense of self agency, you need to let them be when you can. As I said before, when I am looking over at a scene I am looking at both dogs, because there is a conversation going on. It's the nature of that conversation that would have me intervene, that and knowing my dog. Well balanced dogs don't attack puppies. They may correct them very hard, but they won't attack as puppies are neither threats nor challenges. For as much as the dog is growling, the puppy is responding, "no, let's play!" Dogs speak dog and hear that. Teenage periods are always a little more volatile, for the pup then may want to test the adult dog more. For an adult dog to pop and attack a puppy and be issuey thereafter means something was amiss with that adult dog beforehand. I am not saying it can't happen, but on a well balanced dog...there was no threat there. To develop issues because a puppy made you pop isn't normal.

This thread makes me sad because of that Tonka thread, and that poor puppy she sent back to a not so good breeder due to her fear that because of a dog attacking incident the puppy would develop fear aggression. She did credit your mentor, Asher, as her basis as a trainer, and I am not saying at all that Ali would say the same thing...I think she'd say differently....but it just goes to show that preaching too much about how an altercation can ruin a dog's life in this case ended up having a puppy getting booted out of a good home and back to a very bad breeder. That's sad. And that's fallout.

Sounds to me like you have a well adjusted Dachshund, D'Ar, and I am glad he has a puppy friend. Definitely your SBIL's head isn't where it needs to be, as he needs to guide his puppy and not blame another dog's reaction rather than seeing that his puppy was being a pest and that he was lucky D'Ar is so together and contained.

Edited by author Wed Jan 16, '13 11:57am PST

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G2

Be Scaredy of- Me, Dawg!
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 11:51am PST 
"..."She wound up relinquishing ownership of the one dog because she would not take my advice" That's a bit presumptive."

It certainly is. Why don't you encourage your "friend" to come to this forum & let us know what really happened? That would be interesting, since, as everyone knows, facts are easily skewed in some folks' memory/over time. Better to have the reality of a situation as opposed to having possibly faulty memory used as an example.

Edited by author Wed Jan 16, '13 12:01pm PST

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 11:55am PST 
She wound up relinquishing because she wasn't paying attention. My puppies usually get two or three corrections from the adults. That's all they need. If these corrections were ongoing, that was a problem right there....that's not how corrections work; contrary to popular statements dogs do learn from them wink So if they were ongoing, that was a cue of a problem....way, way before a serious one developed.
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Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 12:18pm PST 
People can cite whatever they want. There is no way to ensure that small-minded people don't pick up a few buzzwords and completely ignore the meaning behind them. I can't imagine that anyone who had ever even read Scaredy Dog would ever cite Ali Brown as a reason that made them give up on a puppy after trying. . . nothing. IMO, what that poster knew about dogrearing could fill a thimble. I mean that to be as polite and noninflammatory as possible of course (waves away steam coming out of ears). meditate
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