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Dog to Dog Corrections

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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D'artagnan

I'm not lazy,- I'm just waiting- to play..
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 8:44am PST 
Asher, I was thinking 'growling is a first correction' instead of 'correction is the snap or bite'. your posts make more sense now smile

I find is that if the dog keeps chewing (this does not include chewing more frantically!) while growling, that is likely all he will do" - Tiller
He did keep chewing and he didn't tense at all (and I don't think he chewed any faster) which is why I didn't feel it was a resource aggression thing like the SBF did.

My mom is watching them both today (apparently they were both chewing and now they are sleeping all cuddly) so I think today when I pick him up if there is an issue I will just move to the couch with Dar. Short little corgi puppy legs can't jump up there yet big grin If sister & SBF don't want Dar to correct that's fine, but If I just keep moving Dar and my sister and/or SBF don't do anything with the pup I feel like it will be a bigger problem in the future.

If it was my puppy, I think I would let Dar continue to correct unless it had the potential to get out of hand. I trust Dar and he didn't give any sign that he had any intention to actually hurt Atreyu. I can help the puppy learn the rules, but I think 2 dogs should learn to communicate without me involved if they are going to live together.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 8:53am PST 
Or D'ar could learn he needs to take things into his own hands and escalate. Or generalize to other dogs. Given the possibilities, I would go for the solution with the least potential for fallout to my own dog.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 9:34am PST 
Just adding I work to prevent the smackdowns and create more appropriate behaviors. Giving and receiving them may be a part of social learning, but by letting the dogs work it out themselves is advocating the opportunity to put a better, more appropriate behavior in the place of the undesirable behavior and allowing the DOGS to choose their reaction and relationships (which may not always be appropriate, especially if the two dog HAVE to co-exist).

I have a (supposedly dog savvy) friend who was constantly talking about how her dogs played rough and this dog was always correcting the pup and that it was good for the pup to learn. Then she was dumbfounded when her two dogs started having all out "I am going to kill you" fights later down the road. She wound up relinquishing ownership of the one dog because she would not take my advice before things escalated and could not get it under control once they did.
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Smokey

Let's play tug!!
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 9:56am PST 
Angel, you took the words out of my mouth. It isn't about keeping your dog in a bubble. My dog goes everywhere that he can handle. Friend's house for playdates, pet supply store, to visit family, beach including off leash at fiesta island, training class, etc, etc. I don't interfere unless I see a reason to. If he's playing with another dog and there is occasional growling or yelping which causes the other dog to immediately back off, great. I actually feel better about two dogs playing when I see a little problem arise and they handle it well, because it shows me that they can communicate with each other. On the other hand, sometimes I see Smokey get overwhelmed. If he starts circling and barking, he needs a break because he is feeling threatened by the other dog. Some days it happens a lot, some days not at all. Sometimes I just sit there watching for a couple of hours, because the dogs are playing so beautifully. When I do intervene, it doesn't mean that I screech about protecting my widdle baby from the scary monster and run for the hills; I just pick him up and hold him for a couple of minutes until he is calm. (I conditioned him to like being held because it's so convenient when we're away from home, but a timeout in a crate works too). Most of the time he's back to playing in a couple minutes. This is not just out of concern for him, but also to encourage the behaviors I want. Automatically focusing on me when he's uncomfortable, for example, helps when he is thinking about growling and lunging at a bike or barking at noises. IMO, you want a balance between independence and deference. You want your dog to be able to handle himself to a point, but when he's uncomfortable and not being heard, there are only two options- your dog looks to you to protect him, or he protects himself however he sees fit. The point at which you need to interfere is probably different for different dogs, and more dependent on how your dog feels about what is happening rather than the actual event. But imo, a snarl or an air snap, especially if not between established playmates who listen to each other well, is the clearest of signals that intervention should happen immediately if it hasn't already. Though he MAY stop short of biting a puppy, or at least not do major damage, if you ignore the last clear warnings that come before a bite, you take that risk. Dogs live by conditioned association. I don't want mine learning that snapping and snarling aren't enough to stop other dogs from doing things he doesn't like. I think of it as him doing me a favor by giving notice that he isn't happy about what's going on. I want to encourage him to keep doing that by listening to him. If your kid cries because someone teases him or hits him and you say "man up, pansy" or "work it out between yourselves," he is going to turn into a person who doesn't express his feelings. Why should he, when nothing good comes of it? My experience has been that listening to Smokey makes him braver and more confident rather than making him overly dependent on me. You don't get a bombproof dog by throwing it terrified into the ring with snarling beasts- you get a reactive dog that way. You get a bombproof dog by teaching him that when he says uncle, you're going to get him out of there. The more he trusts you to protect him, the more he's able to tolerate. I've had Smokey a few months, and he's already more comfortable with rough play and big dogs than he was before, and better at looking at me rather than doing something antisocial (although that's definitely a work in progress, since he had three years of practice with defending himself).
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 10:08am PST 
Smokey, applause
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Member Since
12/31/1969
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 10:12am PST 
asher, your anecdote about your friend isn't causal. it could just be two dogs that would not have gotten along eventually, anyway - you don't know. so that is a very poor 'i told you so!' example to give.
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Trixie Bean!

none so blind as- those that will- not see
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 10:20am PST 
Thats not a great example Asher laugh out loud. I didnt used to allow Trixie to correct Roxie, and would save Roxies ass every time.. And ended up with dogs at war with each other.. Roxie never learned how to handle a correction, so when Trix eventually DID correct her, she flipped out shrug
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 10:24am PST 
And maybe they could have, but my friend was not willing to put in the time to fix the issue and according to her the dogs were really trying to kill each other, saying that dog A had a desire to kill dog B that "just won't quit" so...

But her situation is not unique and I have students who HAVE worked through issues like that. There is a reason I stopped letting my dogs take control of the situation themselves, too many times I have seen what it can lead to. Not always, not every dog that is on the receiving or giving end of a smackdown will develop issues, but with the potential for them to be so detrimental, why let it happen if one can avoid it.
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Trixie Bean!

none so blind as- those that will- not see
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 10:28am PST 
And Smokey, I am fairly sure NOBODY here is talking about "throwing a dog terrified into a ring of snarling dogs". A dog being corrected for rude behaviour by another dog during social interaction is far from being thrown into a ring of snarling dogs.. shrug Dont really see the need for such an emotive twist on peoples words?
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Squ'mey

too old to eat- any more KD
 
 
Barked: Wed Jan 16, '13 10:33am PST 
wow..."She wound up relinquishing ownership of the one dog because she would not take my advice" That's a bit presumptive shrug
And there is a big difference between dogs working out a social situation & a child being belittled by a parent.
Working it out will not lead to suppressed emotional expression, but insulting your kid probably would.
There is also a difference between allowing social interaction/correction & "throwing it terrified into the ring with snarling beasts"
My dogs know I have their back, but I also put pressure on them & yes..Gasp..even stress. Life is stressful, everyone..man or beast...has to deal with it.
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