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Problems with intact males after neuter? Or just this dog?

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Daddy

Changing one- mind at a time - APBT style
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 12:13pm PST 
Daddy has always been fine with other dogs. Rambunctious at times but not aggressive or even that assertive. When he was intact he would be regressed at by other intact males and he would either run the other way or submit. Well Daddy has been neutered for about half a year now.

My brother brought over his young (6 months) intact male dog over, a bit smaller than Daddy. Daddy got really worked up, and when the other dog snarled he showed his teeth back, something he has never done. He was not in a small enclosed space nor on a leash, and they met through the fence and were fine. But as soon as the other dog started jumping on him he started jumping on him back and trying to mount him, and he had a very dominant posture. He was easy enough to de-escalate (Daddy) but the other dog is extremely hyper and really kept getting in his face and then trying to run on the leash.

I've read time and again neutered male dogs tend to have a problem with intact male dogs. And if you watch shows like the Dog Whisperer you will see when an intact dog (especially a male) is brought into the group of almost exclusively neutered/spayed dogs, many of them, most of them even get tense and uneasy.

But my question is, do you all think he was reacting to the energy of this particular dog being so hyper and unruly (even though he used to be like that himself)? Daddy is an older dog for his breed at 8 years old. Or was it a combination of the other dog's hyperness and the fact that he was young and intact while Daddy is older and neutered?

Daddy wasn't trying to bite him or really trying to get into it (he could if he had wanted to, any dog could). But he was really wanting to establish himself as the dominant dog, again, he's never had this problem when he was intact. When intact his main problem was trying to hump spayed females (really annoying). But when another dog told him his place he accepted it.

It's fair to say that Sammy did have about the same reaction, except she nipped his nose. But she isn't used to larger dogs aside from Daddy who comparatively is pretty chill. And before we got her she really had no exposure to dogs outside of the household, just other small dogs, she became an indoor only dog that never saw outside dogs. Then for the last seven months of the time she had at her last home no exposure to any other dogs of any size.

The neutered male dog next door hates intact males, he would often aggress behind the fence at Daddy before he was neutered, but Daddy would just ignore him. I don't know of anyone who has laid back intact male dogs (most people I know have either female dogs or no dogs) so I can't test to see if it was just this one dog's energy he had a problem with and not intact males in general.
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Chewy

Tall,Dark, and,- Handsome
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 2:43pm PST 
Chewy is 8 years old, also neutered. He used to have issues with other males in general when on leash, but he hasn't had any issues in almost a year. Since then he has met a ton of dogs on leash on walks, one being intact and no problem. He goes to the dog park and a few of his favorite friends are intact and there have been zero issues.

My cousins Border Collie is a very hyper bouncy in your face dog, and when he gets in the jumpy anxious whiny mode Chewy will try to put him in his place.

I think that could have been what Daddy was trying to do, but it could be a bit of both too. Do you think you would be able to bring him to a dog park and see if there are any intact males there you could test his interactions with since you don't know anyone?

I think in this situation he was probably just trying to put a younger hyper dog in his place.

Edited by author Sat Dec 22, '12 2:47pm PST

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Daddy

Changing one- mind at a time - APBT style
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 4:59pm PST 
Unfortunately we have a lot of not so great pet owners around here who don't socialize their dogs or take aggressive dogs to off leash places and places where there will be a lot of people/dogs, it's the only dog park in our county. I really do not trust it based on this fact. I suppose I could try taking him (on leash of course, I don't walk my dogs without a leash for their own safety) the event in the summer time where there will be a lot of dogs, although in the past he has been leash reactive, fine off leash but reactive on so I may not even know then.

You're probably right though. It's just odd that he used to play just as much with the pups, even with an energetic intact 8 month old male pit bull mix and a six month old old neutered lab mix, though neither was nearly as hyper as this particular dog. He never tried to mount or dominate the others though which is why this came across as so strange to me. It was obvious he didn't want to fight because dog fights can get serious very fast and although he was showing his teeth a couple of times and mounting he wasn't trying to bite him or force him down or anything. But he was tense looking and his pupils huge. The other dog was biting but I think it was play biting because he wasn't holding on or biting hard.
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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 8:52pm PST 
I'm going to point out that more commonly, humping is caused by stress, or excitement too.

It sounds to me like Daddy was getting agitated, or even aroused(excitement) by the younger dogs antics more than anything.

I have, however, seen many neutered dogs that aren't as friendly with intact dogs repeatedly at the dog park. Charlie has never had that problem, but I did have a Husky come up that simply did not like my moms Rottweiler, Grizz when I took him - postured, stood over him, growled, wouldn't let Grizz get away, and all of Grizz's signals were appeasement and calming. But the Husky wouldn't let up, so it got to a point where I knew a fight would break out if I didn't do anything and Grizz would likely have been blamed. I body blocked the Husky while I tried to get Grizz away. The Huskies owners? All the way across the field, minimum of a hundred yards away not bothering to call their dog.

Honestly, regardless of whether a dog is intact or not - whoever's dog is the instigator, his owner should be the one to take control of their own dog.
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Turner - Gone Too- Soon

Hi I'm Turner- Wanna Smell My- Butt?
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 9:27pm PST 
Intact male dogs produce more testosterone. Removing the testicles removes the majority of the scent.
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Nare

Woo-woo- whineybutt
 
 
Barked: Sat Dec 22, '12 11:25pm PST 
At six months of age it is a gamble that the pup would be producing testosterone. It usually doesn't start until about 8 months.. but it varies with genetics.

The pup was acting rude, and Daddy may have been humping out of stress or excitement.. A male wouldn't mount another male to establish dominance. If he were trying to establish dominance he'd have put his head over the pups head or shoulders and the pup would've lain down (submit) to him.

That being said.. Daddy may have been correcting the pup.
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Ava & Nix

Suburban Farm- Dogs
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 23, '12 2:11pm PST 
I agree, he sounded like he was trying to correct the puppy, but I definitely also feel (from experience) that neutered males are prone to being aggressive towards intact males. Haven't noticed it in females, but then again I don't own an intact female.

That said, at this point, I am to an extent scared of neutered male dogs. I've become a lot better at noticing the subtle signs that a fight is about to break out. I don't allow random greetings anymore. We've had neutered males rush us off leash before, we've had normally-calm neutered males turn vicious snarling at the end of their leash when Nix walks by... I don't know what it is about him because his dog-manners are actually quite good. It's gotta be the scent he gives off, or something.
shrug

Even owners of other intact male dogs I've spoken to usually say that they've never had such a problem with neutered males being aggressive towards their boys. I mean, I've talked to SOME who have the same issue I do, but most people are shocked to hear how badly Nix gets targeted. I've thought about having him neutered just for his safety. He hasn't gotten torn in to yet, thankfully, but I fear it might happen someday.
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Moose

I love sitting- in laps
 
 
Barked: Sun Dec 23, '12 2:45pm PST 
Wow Nix. That's a pain.
The beach I take Moose to (a lot of dogs there) each weekend has been problem free with neutered males attitude with Moose being intact. They'll usually sniff his bits and then they're off and playing. I figure it's because Moose isn't exuding as much testosterone as he will be once sexually mature.

And there's a fair amount of intact males that frequent the beach and only two, that I can think of, have been trouble. Mostly an owner issue. But the problems have not been (while I've been there at least) neutered against intact.
I'm almost afraid to take Moose anywhere else off leash since our experience at the beach has been so great.
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Nare

Woo-woo- whineybutt
 
 
Barked: Mon Dec 24, '12 1:02am PST 
Nix, Nare also gets targeted a lot. confused I don't blame it on their dog for not liking intact dogs, or for Nare being intact. For whatever reason a dog pursued Nare.. Blaming it on the fact that Nare is intact is an excuse to me. Even if I lie and say he is neutered they'll make something up "Sorry he doesn't like GSDs/black dogs/big dogs/any dog/puppies".
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Daddy

Changing one- mind at a time - APBT style
 
 
Barked: Mon Dec 24, '12 2:37pm PST 
Thank you all for chiming in. Perhaps I just over reacted (let anxiety take over). I did notice when my mother's dog got older she was less tolerant of hyper puppies and would put them in their place by showing teeth or even nipping but never bit or did the head thing. The small dog who is also middle aged flat out nipped his nose for being so in her face and hyper. I guess I was just surprised since Daddy is used to playing with younger dogs and has never tried to correct them before. I guess maybe it's his age.

He wasn't actually mounting him, nor was he humping. Daddy almost looked like was going to mount because he was putting his head on top of the younger dog's neck and sometimes his front paw over it. He was definitely getting a little too worked up though because his pupils were huge. I had to correct them both and they calmed down for a few seconds but then the pup would get way too overzealous all over again. Not wanting anything to escalate I just took Daddy inside entirely.
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