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Monks of New Skete?

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Nikki CGC- RLI- 1/09/01-08/1- 8/09

A Work In- Progress
 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 5:30am PST 
We're getting a FCR pup in the near future and the breeder has sent an email highly recommending the book, "The Art of Raising a Puppy" by the Monks of New Skete

I've never read the book and I don't know their philosophy at all. I was just wondering if anyone here has and has an opionion on their training methods?

We've been reading Ian Dunbar's on line book "before bringing home your puppy" and we were going to get the rest of the series and kinda go with that. Any thoughts on which is better?
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Fred

I love the sound- of my own voice 		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 5:50am PST 
I was addicted to the show "Monks of New Skete" when it was on animal planet or something. I think it came on for one season.
I agreed with everything they did and respected their calmness.
I wanted to get the book but never did cause I couldnt find anyone that had read it and suggested it shrug
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Cody

Don't blame me,- I voted to take- a walk.		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 6:28am PST 
Stick with books by Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Pat Miler, and others who use positive reinforcement training. The Monks work off the dominance theory which the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior now debunks. www.AVSABonline.org

Early on we used the Monks methods, but now know better.
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Fred

I love the sound- of my own voice 		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 6:49am PST 
I do think that in some cases a dog needs a diffrent method than positive reinforcement training. When I first got Fred he was aggressive only with me. I had to use dominance training and after one alpha roll and a few weeks of dominance training he never had a problem with his agression towards me again. The monks used a little dominace but remained calmn and never hurt the dogs.

I think that all trainers out there have great ideas and I like to take bits and peices from each one. There is not one trainer I totally agree with 100%, every dog is diffrent and every case is diffrent and might require diffrent types of training. Fred now is trained by positive reinforcement but he still is trained with some dominance in certain situations (monks of new skete style).

I say that if you like the style of a trainer and your dog responds to it well, why not?!
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 8:03am PST 
Actually, in the original version of their book, the Monks are the ones who said that if your puppy does not listen to you, you are not hitting him hard enough.

A LOT of what they did was founded on that flawed wolf study and their version of the Alpha Wolf Roll involves grabbing the dog by the throat, throwing him down hard on his back and screaming “No!” in his face. (They’re lovely, those monks...).

They also rely heavily on collar corrections and leash pops which was easy to see in their short lived series.

I don't know, if that is the type of training yoou advocate, then get the book. Personally, I can manage my dogs, including my reformed biter Asher, just fine without them.
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Fred

I love the sound- of my own voice 		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 8:14am PST 
I use their leash pop corrections when walking Fred and he sees another dog, Cesaer uses the pop correction as well - Both the monks and Cesaer both showed doing it to the side to prevent injury to the dog. Some people could say the leg bump that Cesaer uses is too harsh. Not every dog will do something for a treat or a toy, some need to be redirected by a collar correction or a leg bump.

Im not saying the monks are perfect but some things they did worked well for me and Fred (I got them off the show). The one thing I learned was to walk around my dog in a circle without him moving- they never did anything harsh during that teaching - a few collar corrections was all. I would never in anyway do the things the monks practiced in the old days. I took stuff that I learned by watching their show.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 8:28am PST 
Fred, I was not denying that it works. Positive punishment does work.

I am saying that I don't believe it is needed. I taught my dogs to sit in place by shaping it, putting them in a sit and taking one step, marking it, then 2 steps and marking it (marking with a click, treat) until I could walk around them in a sit or a down.

Now we do a moving stand, we heel, I give the stay cue and Ash remains in place while I continue to walk, either away or around him. Every time he shifts a paw we lose a point, so the stay needs to be rock solid.

No leash corrections are needed for this, I shaped it with a clicker and treats.

I also shaped the heel, working at a distance, captured downs, lured fronts all without relying on leash corrections or even touching my dogs except for praise.

I walked away from all that stuff when Ash came into my life and I needed to look beyond collar corrections and dominance stuff to help him and I know I will never look back except with regret.
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Fred

I love the sound- of my own voice 		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 8:40am PST 
Asher,

I totally understand your point of view. Its just that when I am out walking both my 100pd dogs and something makes them react then all I can do at the time is collar corrections to prevent them from pulling me down the street smile They have always worked well with collar corrections while walking and I will not stop due to the fact treats etc will not help. I am not saying it happens all the time but they will walk just fine by some dogs and some they become excited. They also do the same thing with dogs behind fences - some are ok some arent. shrug But the collar correction brings them both back.

The prong collar is a tool for corrections as well, which I dont use. Some people view the prong and any chokers as punishment/dominant training since they are collar correcting. I dont think twice about it when I see someone walking their dog on a prong.

I use collar correcting aka dominance/punishment based training when walking and to redirect the bloodhounds attention on some commands and he listens. Getting him to do it for bacon or anything else high value doesnt work - he is not in to toys or food.
A few collar corrections a month isnt going to harm him.

Thats why I said every dog is diffrent. Fred is 107pds, ADD, hyper, hates food and toys, has been through 4 trainers, and would rather be goofy and playful than pay attention so a collar pop here and there during command reinforcement brings him back to focus.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 8:55am PST 
Fred, I am not being aurguementative, but I would strongly disagree.

I am working with an Akita that drug her owner down the street. I've worked with Huskies that could not be walked together because they were too strong. I've got a Shep client that lives on a horse farm and lives to chase the chickens and ducks. The bouncy Boxer, the disinterested Malamute, Corgis that live to interact with other dogs, PBs, Labs, JRT's, Ridgebacks, Spinones, I've yet to find the need to resort to collar corrections.

The key is finding a reinforcer with enough value and slowly building criterion, particularly distractions.

And collar corrections are positive punishment. The fact that they work has little to do with dominance and much to do with the fact that they are designed to cause discomfort.

Additionally, they do not easily translate to off lead where the way I train LLW or heel has little to do with the collar or leash and everything to do with reinforcing proper position.
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Rally Pood

Hand over the- treats'n nobody- gets hurt!		 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 8, '09 8:56am PST 
"Its just that when I am out walking both my 100pd dogs and something makes them react then all I can do at the time is collar corrections to prevent them from pulling me down the street "

I walked 260 lbs. of dog 6 miles yesterday without collar corrections. That's 100 more lbs. of dog than there was hooman to hold them back. We not only encountered other people, but loose dogs, chained dogs, dogs charging fences, cats, livestock, cars, baby strollers, kids, skateboarders, etc. Since we had spent plenty of time positively reinforcing loose leash walking with each dog individually, increasing distractions and duration over time, then adding more dogs, there was no need for corrections. The few times one of the dogs reacted we simply backed up to where they could be successful, refocused, positively reinforced that focus and/or calm glances to whatever the dog was previously reacting to and went on our way. While they may work for some dogs, adding leash corrections, hand grabs or foot taps could well lead to more reactivity in others.
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